help a noob out, pleeaase??

[Doc]

That was a pretty comprehensive answer

[LASERGUY]

Adam, well said!

I know its pretty tuff for young new guys to hear the facts... Sometimes the expereience guys need to step in an do some back of the head smacking

Laser shows are not always so glamerous... this gig takes on some serious responsabilities.

I learned not to long ago.... keep your head down and your ears open.
My father and these old guys just may know a thing or two..
(Your not old Adam.... just experienced)

Thanks for looking out

[hibbity]

A general note here - this hobby is *expensive*.

I sorta noticed, i was hoping to get a small low power projector going, and see if i could curb the craving there.
instead of buying a $3000 rgb projector online, i was hoping to build one for 1/2 that.



Wait - you're already doing commercial shows?

not really commercial shows, i haven't been paid yet. I just run the lights for a friends band and guest bands in a garage.



For one, there are lots of safety features you will need to add.

I had fully planned to.


Also, there are federal regulations that you absolutely *must* be in compliance with. And there are some practical concerns to consider too. Reliability of your equipment is going to be paramount, which means you're going to want to spend more money on your scanners *and* your controller.

thats why i came here for advice. I've got a kinda strict budget tho, so im looking for items on the value/price curve. the better scanpros are nearly 3 times as much, are they really 3 times better?
the retail controllers ive seen are like 1,000$ minimum, thats way too much to start out at.
norms or a soundcard dac looks functional for a fracton of the price. I dont need best, i need good for the money, and maybe a little bit of robust.



I wouldn't use that (HE Laserscan) for a live performance in front of the public. Period. There are far superior solutions out there that will give you more creativity *and* more relilability as well.

it looks like it has the basic funciontality im looking for.
dmx on a standard controller isnt optimal for my other lighting, but it does the job.
I just change the lighting to accent the music, i don't need a whole lot.

(But, as always, they cost more...)

exactly. i dont necessarily want pro software. if i can run it for the whole show, and it doesnt crash, im fine. if it crashes twice, im still fine, my dmx controller is ***** too. I do lighting for 20 year old wanna be famous kids. Im 20 too, but i dont care about fame really. it feels good to put on a good show, even if the bands suck, and some of them are pretty good.

I know they feel like rock stars, and its more fun for everyone.

The equipment we have was bought on a part time walmart employee budget after rent and cell phone bill. its good stuff tho. one step up, and it would be $10,000 instead of $5,000, but are the other lights 2 times as good? i dont think that's even possible. what we have is great.


There are operators here that perform commercial shows for fewer people than you do, and they have full variances for their shows and gear from the CDRH. If they can do it, you can too.

(It's not expensive.) You don't need to take a class - you can educate yourself.

Im a little excited at that statement. It's not expensive. I assumed since all the hardware was thousands of dollars, that it would be at least $1000 to get a variance for equipment, and some posts on the forum lead me to believe that its tons of hoops to jump thru and months of paperwork. I only know theres a show a week in advance. With that idea in mind, Its one of the things I havent looked up yet. some things the poor cant pay for, like a radio broadcast permit.

Im here, I'm doing it right, even if my attitude toward the law is lax. I'm young, and that attitude comes with.

my friends original plan was to put a high power blue laser in a chauvet scorpion sky housing.

his second plan was to buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2BSI%26otn%3D3

and point a high power laser at it.

I said no way. we have to build a real projector if we're gonna do it. no duct tape involved.

I look at a projector and i see all the parts, and I found everything on ebay, and it was like 6000$ i did it again using what i learned about the hardware from the first "build" I found better parts, I found information about parts. i did the second "build" for 800 after mirrors and diachronic lenses.
I could have built it, it would have worked, and i wouldn't even know that audience scanning is illegal in the US.

I didnt know how blanking worked, but i might have figured it out by talking to the seller of the laser.

I didn't stop tho, i continued to educate myself and ask questions. I read many of the longer threads on laser safety and audience scanning. I decided that audience scanning was something i definitely wasn't going to do.
I've looked at many sides arguments about laser saftey, I learned about lasers leaking IR. I thought about how to make a shutter that closes if my computer crashes of if i lose partial system power.

There were 2 kill switches we in my second "build" one hardwired big red electric mushroom switch, one wireless one built out of an old rc car. if the batteries die or i go out of range with the controller, it would cut the lines between the supply and the lasers, clips onto my belt, always within reach. that was before i knew the rules.

last Friday night (4/17/09), is when we got the idea that we wanted a better laser. My friend sent me a link to a ps3 Blu-ray diode, and said lets make something awesome with one of these. Ive learned a ton since then.

If you want help here, help is available. We can show you how to get a variance, suggest equipment that will help you improve your projector, and guide you through the process of creating a show. We can even show you how to build your own projector from scratch - including all the safety requirements that the CDRH will want to see before approving your variance.

Im all ears, when my projector is done, we should have a sticky about the requirements and a step by step guide to variance. I'll organize the data as part of my learning experience. If its too much or too expensive, I promise not to do it 1/2 way. its all or nothing. also, i wont buy any parts until i fully understand the task at hand.


Can you now? That's a pretty fair boast from someone just starting out. Especially when you haven't done any shows larger than 100 people, and probably don't know all the other laser show companies that are operating in Wisconsin. For the record, there are *hobbyists* here that have enough equipment in their garage to do an outdoor liquid sky effect (without fog) for 1000 people. So, do you still think you're the best in the state?

I havent seen or even heard of anything about lasers up here, so i assumed that there were few or none in the state. the "which dac are you using" thread only had 50ish results. i figured there were maybe twice that number of home projector builders stateside , and only 20-30 high power home builders.

I also get the impression that the southern and western states do more of this stuff. Wisconsin is full of drunks, guidos, and lots of illegals. Not that everyone is, just lots.

Who's in wisconsin? it would be great to discuss some of this stuff in person.

also, for the record, I can barely do a liquid sky at all, so i fully retract my previous statement about the best in the state. I do the best free lighting for high school garage bands in the state, hands down.


But if you aren't going to follow the rules, you'll find that help will be quickly withdrawn. We don't need any more cavalier laser operators. There are far too many of them out there as it is, and they are slowly but surely *KILLING* this industry.

I fully understand that sentiment.


~Hibbity

[hibbity]

so i can turn everything waaay down for close indoor shows and sweeping small private audiences. thats kind of a final stage deal tho.

At this point, I'd yell at past self for that one. however, what has been said cannot be unsaid. even on the internet. keeps me honest

[Doc]

Don't let all of this put you off, you just need to research everything properly, and make sure you have a clear understanding and respect for what you are getting in to.

Could you live with yourself if you blinded somebody?

Ask the questions, read, understand and follow the guidelines, don't cut corners and you won't have a problem.

I don't know how things work in the courts in the U.S. but in the U.K. if, God forbid, anything did go wrong; so long as you can show that you did everything in your power to follow all of the guidelines, then you probably won't go to jail. You'll still however; be fully responsible for the compensation payout.

[White-Light]

The equipment we have was bought on a part time walmart employee budget after rent and cell phone bill. its good stuff tho. one step up, and it would be $10,000 instead of $5,000, but are the other lights 2 times as good? i dont think that's even possible. what we have is great.

Lasers are different. Its not necessarily that they look any better (although they may well do). Its more that you're buying reliability and build quality. There really are some terrible lasers out there. Its like the difference between buying a quality car such as a new Audi or a clapped out banger. One is more expensive but is as reliable as the hell. The other is cheap but won't perform as expected and will break down frequently at great expense.

Is it really such a bargain to spend $1,000 building a projector to have the lasers fail after 6 months when $2,000 or $3,000 might have got you a genuine 10,0000 hours = maybe 10 or more years of use?

Or to find your cheap but on reflection expensive laser puts out 1/3rd of its stated output?

Cheap scanners often have poor performance, fail to make their specs and often fail quickly. 3 sets of cheap is more expensive than 1 set of good which again may last years and years as well as performing a world apart.

If you're doing graphics you really want the best scanners you can afford. Good scanners here would be DT40's or Scan Pro 40's.

If you're just doing beams then you can get away with a little less speed so try some DT25's or Scan Pro 30's if the 40's are too expensive.

If you're still not convinced - want to compare scanners, on a demo level:

1st, scans from a $3,000 ebay laser, no doubt at that price one of the very best lasers on ebay, which is why I chose it. Its isn't a cheap laser so it shouldn't suffer any of the above problems. However when looking at scan quality, note some apparent colour bleed (orange in the pink and blue), an orange dot below the "n" and tails on the lettering (most noticeable on the "o" but can be seen on several points of the letters t, h k especially - primarily the bottom edges). These are 30K scanners according to the advert:




Now look at a set of DT 40's performing the tough 30K ILDA test pattern. So a 30K scan also:








I'll let your eyes decide but are you really still convinced on performance alone the Chinese scanners are better?

[buffo]

I was hoping to get a small low power projector going, and see if i could curb the craving there.

Well, you can forget that idea. There is no curbing the craving - ever. Lasers are an addiction, and an expensive one at that. Oh sure, you can start out on a budget, but as time goes on that budget will never be enough and you will always long for more.

Just want to let you know up front what you're getting yourself into.

instead of buying a $3000 rgb projector online, i was hoping to build one for 1/2 that.

$1500 is a small budget, but you can build a white-light projector for that. If you're talking $1500 for a projector *and* software *and* a controller, then all I can say is that you'd better be very handy with both a soldering iron and a table saw...

Your budget is going to box you into something like the following for your projector:
- A pair of home-made blu-ray modules combined with a PBS cube to yield ~300 mw of 405 nm (Or maybe a little more)
- A 100 mw dpss green module (purchased retail)
- A pair of home-made red modules combined with a PBS cube to yield ~400 mw of 658 nm
- A set of Chinese-made 30K galvos

You'll also need a baseplate, some optics and mounts, a shutter, a case to mount everything in, a keyswitch, and a few other doo-dads. But everything above can be purchased and assembled for well under $1500 if you're savvy.

This is a nice start, and will allow you to do nearly full color shows. (I say nearly, because you are still missing a good blue, but that's going to cost an extra $700 or so all by itself.) Note, however that we haven't talked about the controller or software yet...

Wait - you're already doing commercial shows?
not really commercial shows, i haven't been paid yet. I just run the lights for a friends band and guest bands in a garage.

Careful there... Is anyone at the event getting paid, or is it a private event where everyone is just there for the fun? Because if there is commerce of *any* kind (even indirect commerce where the show is free but there is a cover charge to get in), then you are within the jurisdiction of the CDRH and will need a variance.

For one, there are lots of safety features you will need to add.
I had fully planned to.

No, you misunderstood - these need to be in place *before* you do a show for the public.

I've got a kinda strict budget tho, so im looking for items on the value/price curve. the better scanpros are nearly 3 times as much, are they really 3 times better?

Hard to say. 3 times better? Eh, probably not. But how do you put a price tag on reliability? For example, hypothetically speaking - if a scanner mirror drops off during a show because they used cheap glue to attach it and it melted because the venue is hot (lousy air conditioning), how do you quantify that?

If you really are on a tight budget, then go with the cheaper scanners and see how they work for you. But my experience is that it's better to spend a little extra money up front rather than trying to trade-up several times, because in the end you will spend more money trading up than you would have if you just bought the good stuff to start with.

Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy some Cambridge Technology 6215's... And if you are only going to do beams and simple atmospheric effects, then you can get away with cheaper scanners. But if you want to do graphics, then you're going to want something in the $400 to $600 range at minimum.

the retail controllers ive seen are like 1,000$ minimum, thats way too much to start out at.

How do you know, until you've seen them in action?

Trust me on this - I was once in the same camp you are. I thought $1500 was *insane money* for a hobbyist to spend on a controller. I even balked at spending $850 for the Mamba Black / Easylase combination... But I was clueless about what those controllers could do for me.

Believe me, knowing what I know now, I *wish* I could go back to my very first controller and just say "screw it... Save up for 6 months and buy Pangolin." It would have saved me at least *double* what I've currently invested, and would have also saved me two very painful years learning how to use inferior controllers.

Besides, if you're doing live shows, it sounds like the Flashback 3 is all you'll need, and it's just $500. (Cheaper than Mamba Black and the Easylase USB even!)

norms or a soundcard dac looks functional for a fracton of the price. I dont need best, i need good for the money, and maybe a little bit of robust.

Norms is *not* what I'd call robust. Not by any stretch. It's a parallel port controller, which to me automatically disqualifies it from use with the general public.

I started out with the Alphalite XC Pro, which is another parallel port controller / software package. And all of these units suffer from the same problem: The PC will suspend data flow to the parallel port for a number of routine housekeeping tasks, including mouse-clicks, disc insertions, hard disc access, and more. This is UNACCEPTABLE, since when the data flow stops, the scanners "freeze" in position.

A sound card DAC might be an option, but it's got some issues of it's own. Adjusting the controller and correction amp can be painful, and moving the board from one computer to another usually requires additional adjustment. (Not so with other controllers.)

More to the point though, the software is just not ready for prime time yet. It's one thing if you're playing around in your bedroom, but if you want to do shows for the public, you need something more refined (and reliable) in my opinion.

i dont necessarily want pro software. if i can run it for the whole show, and it doesnt crash, im fine. if it crashes twice, im still fine, my dmx controller is ***** too.

In that case I think you *do* want pro software. HE Laserscan is not going to be as reliable as a commercial package. And even a few of the commercial packages crash now and then. (For example, Mamba Black costs over $400, and I've had it crash several times - even with the new update.)

You need to see what other software is out there, and see what it can do, before you make your decision. You might want to contact some of the PL members in Wisconsin and see if any of them would be willing to demo their systems for you.

Or, barring that, you could always make a road trip to one of the Laser Enthusiast's Meetings that we arrange around the country from time to time. (There are two of them in May, both on the 16th... One in Florida and one in Oregon. There is another, much larger one in North Carolina over the weekend of August 15th and 16th. See the meet and greet sub-forum for details on FLEM and SELEM.)

SELEM in particular would be a watershed event for you. See if you can carpool with someone to make it to that event. You won't be disappointed.

The equipment we have was bought on a part time walmart employee budget after rent and cell phone bill. its good stuff tho. one step up, and it would be $10,000 instead of $5,000

Well, if you can afford $5000 in lights, you can afford certainly $500 for a professional laser controller and software to run your projector. I know times are hard, especially for someone so young. Believe me when I tell you that *everyone* here is on a budget. But there are a few places where trying to skimp will only hurt you later. This is one of them.

Im a little excited at that statement. It's not expensive. I assumed since all the hardware was thousands of dollars, that it would be at least $1000 to get a variance for equipment, and some posts on the forum lead me to believe that its tons of hoops to jump thru and months of paperwork.

There is some paperwork, and you're going to need to do some research before you file, but it doesn't cost very much to actually file for a variance. (I think the filing fee is $25?) As for the time frame, that's more due to the slowness of the CDRH than anything you have to do, though if you miss anything on the initial application they will ask you for clarification which will drag the process out. Contact GottaLuvLasers (Mark, from CT Lasers) here on the forum and ask him for his advice. I'm sure he'll be willing to help.

I only know theres a show a week in advance.

Once you get your variance, you're all set. You don't file for every show; you get a blanket variance that covers two or three basic show layouts, and you use those same layouts over and over again. (A layout would be something like, one RGB rig center stage, two green only rigs left and right, bounce mirrors at the back of the venue.)

Once a year you file a "show report" with the CDRH that lists all the shows you did for the year and explains any exceptions (problems). Then every 2 years you file for a variance renewal, and it's done. You can even submit most forms on-line. (But not the original variance request... That one has to go in as a hard copy.)

Im here, I'm doing it right, even if my attitude toward the law is lax. I'm young, and that attitude comes with.

At least you recognize this. Now you need to do something about it. The laws may seem pointless, but that's no excuse to be lax. The penalties are severe, both for you *and* for the industry as a whole. The main reason we have professional laserists here on PhotonLexicon who are willing to help is because they trust that we're not going to turn a bunch of pointer jockies loose on the public. We take a strong stance on safety and legality, because if we don't this industry will soon be legislated out of existence. You need to understand this and act appropriately. I think you're headed in the right direction though. You just needed a push!

We have many young people here who are building their own projectors, and we have at least a few folks in their early 20's who are doing professional shows for large crowds. (Large crowds = more than 1,000.) If they can do all that while playing by the rules, surely you can as well.

my friends original plan was to put a high power blue laser in a chauvet scorpion sky housing.
his second plan was to buy this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...2BSI%26otn%3D3
and point a high power laser at it.
I said no way. we have to build a real projector if we're gonna do it. no duct tape involved.

Good for you. You'll be far better off doing it right the first time. And you'll save money in the long run. And honestly, that single-axis "liquid sky generator" is nearly half the cost of a decent set of scanners, but you'll get a lot more life out of a proper set of scanners. (Not to mention the fact that you can do a whole lot more with a set of scanners!)

I also get the impression that the southern and western states do more of this stuff. Wisconsin is full of drunks, guidos, and lots of illegals. Not that everyone is, just lots.

Careful... I'm a native of Wisconsin! We have several active members in your area. (Not everyone replies to all posts, btw.) 300Evil (also known as one of the other "Adams"!) is in southern Wisconsin, and Mliptack is in Milwaukee. Might want to look one of them up sometime. Oh yeah, have a look at some of 300Evil's videos here. Pay particular attention to the SELEM videos and you'll see why I'm telling you that you need to be there this year.

It might seem like there is more activity in the south because most of the Laser Enthusiast's Meetings have been in this area. But there have been a couple small events in Ohio, and we've got at least 4 members in Michigan too, so there's no reason why someone couldn't organize an event near you...

[mixedgas]

MULTIPLE SNIPS:
Quotes in Black.
Safety is important. CDRH compliance is important. And idiots that disregard the rules and just fly by the seat of thier pants are largely responsible for the lousy regulatory environment we currently have here in the US with regard to laser shows. You will only be making things worse - for yourself and for the rest of the people here in the US. That's not smart.


WELL SAID>

How can you say that when you don't even know what "full legal compliance" entails? Furthermore, what difference does it make if you are reckless around 100 people or around 500? Reckless is reckless, period.

The Permit is free, the time to get it is about two months.


There are operators here that perform commercial shows for fewer people than you do, and they have full variances for their shows and gear from the CDRH. If they can do it, you can too. (It's not expensive.) You don't need to take a class - you can educate yourself.

A minimum for the lowest beam of Nine point Six feet up from the highest point the crowd can access. Six point four feet away horizontally. NO Audience Scanning. A trained control operator in charge. NO delegating, no walking away from the projector. A keyswitch, a safety shutter, warning labels, emission indicator, and masking on the projector so it cannot aim beams into the audience. And bTW, properly done, properly synced, manually synced, on the BEAT and on THE Measure,high power beams well above the heads of the audience look a damn sight better then a wimpy laser doing audience scanning.



If you want help here, help is available. We can show you how to get a variance, suggest equipment that will help you improve your projector, and guide you through the process of creating a show. We can even show you how to build your own projector from scratch - including all the safety requirements that the CDRH will want to see before approving your variance. \

You follow the rules, we will help you. You wanta be the cheap Sam Walton of Wisconsin lasers.... , well, Karma is a Bitch.

But if you aren't going to follow the rules, you'll find that help will be quickly withdrawn. We don't need any more cavalier laser operators. There are far too many of them out there as it is, and they are slowly but surely *KILLING* this industry.

IF I even hear about you doing illegal shows, I will hand you over to the government so fast your head will spin. See raves need to advertise. I can find you, so will the pros in Wisconsin. There is no UNDER THE RADAR. I assure you, the G monitors this site.THE G monitors EBAY, THE G gets a list of every laser that comes through CUSTOMS. You already on the list, so you might as well start compliance work now,

OH, and think about it this way. A laserist with a variance and decent skills had a nasty tech problem they could not get around last week. 4 PL members who did not even know the person offered loaner galvos and tech support, with 3 days to go before the gig. So follow the rules and you will find help here.

Ya know, the person who spends most of the time around your laser is well, you. If you don't put in and use the safety features, odds are it will be you or your family member's eye balls that will be fried. You will end up hurting the ones you love. In today's environment the G will find a way to stick you away for 2-3 years if you mess up. But a lesson hard learned is that YOU end up doing more Damage to YOURSELF then any enemy can ever do. Karma is a witch. Oh, and I'm Christian, and I belive in Karma, or God's version of the concept, I've seen it too many times.

BTW< the CDRH has a 1=800 number. If your compliant, they cut you slack on late bookings if you file the show reports, and if they see enough reports done at the two weeks requested. There is no cost for the required permits, and if your following the rules and have the permits, its hard to get sued.

Nough said.

Steve

[hibbity]

ok, so lets recap,



Phase 0: project concept

step 0: make this project outline.


Phase 1: planning

pre-pre-planning: research projector types, powerlevels and costs.

pre-planning: decide what kind of projector is desired.

planning: research all rules, regulations, and guidelines.

post planning: consult veterans in the field. agitate them. bounce ideas off them. learn from the fallout.

post post-planning: review and set goals and limits.

pre-build: decide budget, find best parts inside limits.

pre-build again:. always 2 times, same for computer parts.

design: layout


Phase 2: Build

step 1: order parts, assemble. adjust.

step 2: order more parts, assemble. project final cost. begin learning software.

step 3: test equipment for functionality. adjust.

step 4: order more parts, assemble. build enclosure.

step 5: order final parts, finish off enclosure. add paint and design logo.(no, im not planning on selling it. its part of doing it right)

step 6: test for functionality. finish learning software.


Phase 3: Design

design 1: design a show.

revise 1: revise show, polish

revise again.

design 2: design another show.

revise 2: revise show, polish

revise again.

design 3: design another show.

revise 3: revise show, polish

revise again.

(complete research about varianceand calculating variance of shows)


Phase 4: compliance

Check 1: double check laser for compliance. adjust.

Check 2: double check laser for compliance more.

Test 1: Test show 1 for variance. adjust.

Test 2: Test show 1 for variance more.

Test 3: Test show 2 for variance. adjust.

Test 4: Test show 2 for variance more.

Test 5: Test show 3 for variance. adjust.

Test 6: Test show 3 for variance more.


Phase 5: Variance

step 1: collect underpants

step 2: ?

step 3: PROFIT!

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________




ok guys, my outline is to phase 5, and the project is at phase 1: planning: research all rules, regulations, and guidelines. Its a little blurred, because i started the next step at the same time.

anyway, most of the point of this post is

where can i find an official website that lays out the rules and regulations. I need duality, one technical document, and one summary of said document. its the only way to regulations! they're always worded so that your face hurts reading them. like with traffic laws, i always end up asking yahoo answers.

i cant finish phase 5 until i read the how and what on variance rules.

reading about MPE is next, but not till i know more about what i need for variance. I know, MPE is part of variance, but it has equations and stuff. my calculater is still tired from high school calculus, I'm gonna let it sleep till i need it.

[buffo]

HAHA! Ok - you've got a pretty detailed outline there. Probably a lot more than you need, but if it helps to have a road map, that's fine. Like you said, you're already thinking about starting construction and you still need to research compliance. That's OK so long as you don't get too far along with the build before you realize that you forgot something.

You need to be mindful of a few things, like making sure you leave room in your projector for a shutter... Now is also a good time to start thinking about where your keyswitch is going to be, how your remote kill switch is going to work, and where you're going to put your emission indicator. That sort of thing...

where can i find an official website that lays out the rules and regulations.

Start with the links in this thread that dsli-Jon posted.
Then download the forms archive that GottaLuvLasers posted in this thread.
See more info in this thread.

And finally, do an advanced search for "CDRH" and "variance" here on PL and browse the other threads that come up. That should give you plenty of leads.

Then you'll need to actually read the CDRH regulations. 21 CFR 1040.10 and 21 CFR 1040.11 explain the rules, while 21 CFR 1010.40 explains the variance. (These are contained in the links above, but they're important enough to be listed separately for easy reference.)

After all that, you might have a few questions.

Ask away, and you'll get answers here. (Note that the CDRH is also quite helpful. I've called them a couple times for clarification, and they are very easy to talk to.)

reading about MPE is next, but not till i know more about what i need for variance.

MPE will be irrelevent unless you want to do audience scanning. Nevertheless, have a look at Greg Makov's paper which is discussed in this thread. It will give you some background on the subject.

I know, MPE is part of variance,

No it's not. At least, not unless you're going to send beams into the audience. You won't be applying for an audience-scanning variance, but rather a generic laser show variance. Thus, MPE isn't a factor because you won't be sending *ANY* beams into the audience.

Adam