News from Pangolin

[daedal]

Hi Adam,

Andy has spoken. Now lets see who he puts in front of us as a programming candidate.

We love to work with capable people and we're always willing to make a deal. Sometimes we pay in cash, sometimes in laser systems, sometimes in gratitude. It all depends on the individual and their needs and desires...

Bill

**Raises hand**

--DDL

[buffo]

Its been well over a year that we hear about Beyond and still nothing. <snip>
Our company and others try to wait to see Beyond before we make the next direction in software purchases as there are more and more options appearing, as long as Bill keeps it from us we wont buy some other system.<snip>
Its long enough and I start to feel the beyond is actually none existent and nothing more than an attempt to stop people buying other systems.

Andy, I can appreciate your point, but you are selectively ignoring several facts:

First, a number of Pangolin customers have SEEN BEYOND with their own eyes, and commented about it in public. (At least, to the limit that the non-disclosure agreement allowed them to.) It is not vaporware, it's real, so your claims that it might not exist are completely baseless and demonstratably wrong.

Second, Bill has explained in detail why resources were diverted from Beyond to other projects, and he also gave his reasons why he felt that a delay of Beyond was in the best interest of both Pangolin and it's customers. If you disagree with that decision then that's a separate issue, but the fact remains that there is a legitimate reason why Beyond was delayed, and it wasn't to trap customers into sticking with Pangolin.

Third, Bill has proven time and again that he does not play the sort of software release date games that other companies (like game software producers) do. He releases the software when he feels that it is stable and secure - period. Your suggestion that he has now completely reversed himself doesn't make any sense, given Pangolin's past performance.

Finally, since you are already a Pangolin customer, you should have nothing to worry about. You will receive the updates when they become available. The only thing that would put you in a position of uncertainty is if you were currently dissatisfied with your Pangolin equipment and were considering changing to something else. And if that is truly the case, then I don't see how BEYOND is going to change anything...

To use phrases like Idiots so many times in another topic about autoplay is not right not professional.

This is the danger when the CEO of a company dares to participate in an on-line discussion forum - particularly one that he has no control over. (Like PL, for instance.) On the one hand, everyone else on the forum can be as rude as they want, but the CEO is always expected to be above it all. This is a double standard that I bet NONE OF US could live up to if we were in Bill's position.

Bill was asked about AutoPlay. He commented that AutoPlay is really aimed at the non-trained user. OK, he used the word "idiot". Big deal. Everyone knows what he means, and no one here falls into that category anyway.

Furthermore, he gave some options as to how to reconcile his desire to keep AutoPlay "simple" while still proving a more advanced solution to users like you and I. And instead of working with him to pursue one of those options, you choose to attack him for his choice of words... So exactly who's side of this issue are you on? Because I really think that Audrey (the young lady who asked the questions) would rather have you suggest some programmers who could work with the Pangolin SDK to create a solution here, rather than argue over the word "idiot".

It is never acceptable to call someone who gives you money an idiot. It makes everyone less likely to give you money in the future.

Are you saying that you've never commented to someone else - anyone else - about a lousy promoter that you've had to deal with, Heroic? Come on now, be honest... I've heard you tell people to "Bite my shiney metal ass" before, right here on PL. Surely at some point in your past you've said something inappropriate about a client. Oh, not to their face of course, but to someone who could conceivably repeat it to the wrong person so that it could get back to the client... NO? Really?

Bill wasn't calling anyone here an idiot. He was making a general comment, in an informal discussion forum, that has been taken out of context. Was it inappropriate? Arguably. But I submit to you that all of us (including you and me) have used equally inappropriate words in the recent past.

OK, you're not a CEO, and neither am I. You do laser shows and DJ gigs in your spare time. Nevertheless, I'd almost bet my next paycheck that at some point in your career you've bad-mouthed *someone*... (I know *I* have...) What if such an off-the-cuff comment to a stage-hand or felow DJ were to get back to the promoter? Would that not be the same problem that you are warning Bill about? (Do you see the double standard yet?)

The logical alternative, of course, is for Bill to completely forgo the forums alltogether. That way no bad comments will slip out, and all his customers will have a warm fuzzy feeling. But where does that leave us here on PL?

Personally, I'm glad that Bill participates here. His contributions are quite valuable. (As are yours, Heroic. I do need to acknowledge that.) And if, after answering 100's of e-mails, he gets frustrated because people can't follow his logic here, and he makes a few kurt posts, suddenly we're all supposed to harp on his lack of self control? Please...

your attitude disturbs me. It gives the impression that, having spent hundreds of dollars on aggressively-closed hardware and software, you might decide that I'm an idiot and stop helping me out when I need it, leaving me unable to proceed.

Whoa there... If it were not for Pangolin's secure file format, it is very likely that there would not be a market for laser artwork. The reason we have awesome shows from the likes of Mike Dunn, Avi, and others is because they know that their content can't easily be ripped off. I'm *glad* that security exists. (You'll note that there are very few - if any - companies selling world-class shows for other controllers that lack this security feature.)

As for the "closed hardware", they do have a software development kit, and several other laser show packages (including Mamba Black and LDS) can use the QM-2000 as an output device. (And before you say "Yeah, but they can't access all the features...", know that a QM-2000 running as a frame bufffer on Mamba Black *still* outperforms an EasyLaseUSB DAC) There have been numerous improvements to the Pangolin software suite written by other programmers. (Asteroids, Winamp Laser Visualizer, LaserMame, etc) That's not very "closed" after all, is it?

So just because Pangolin designed one small piece of their software (AutoPlay) to be easy to use, even by people who are not truly laserists, suddenly you're afraid that Pangolin is going to sever all customer support to a highly trained customer like yourself? That's more than a stretch, it's complete fantasy.

I *do* agree that Bill, like many highly technical people just like him, sometimes has trouble talking effectively with other people, and it is also possible that at times he does not even recognize the communication gulf that exists. But I've seen this with *many* intelligent people I've had the pleasure of knowing, including people I worked with when I was in the nuclear Navy, and people I associated with while I was active with the Amiga computer users groups. It's a common, well-documented problem.

In fact, I have often misunderstood Bill's intentions, even when speaking with him face to face. But I am also wise enough to recognize the root of this problem. I don't blame Bill for my inability to follow his train of thought (at least, not at his speed), and I no longer feel any shame in asking him to explain himself twice (or three times) until I can finally catch up to him.

Why then are you so unwilling to give him any lattitude in this regard?

Adam

[Pangolin]

it is enlightening to see how you see your major customers.

<snip>

You're overall point is well taken and I thank you for pointing this out. My use of the term "idiot" was only to refer to "simple minded people". I used the term as a kind of slang -- knowing that I was "among friends" on PL, but I can see that some people might take it the wrong way. I have edited the series of posts regarding AudoPlay, and in future posts I will stick with the term "simple minded people" as well.

I'll never claim to know everything or be the perfect person. But what makes Pangolin great isn't this one single imperfect person named Bill Benner, but rather the many others who work with us, both as full time employees, and consultants, and close colleagues. In fact, my recent outreach here on PL has encouraged some talented people to contact me and help improve things for everyone. We try to maintain an "all inclusive" attitude and if anyone wants to help and improve things (including improving me like Heroic did above) we welcome that.

I think im one of those idiots.

Actually Paul, I disagree. If you can't figure out the software then it is the software that has failed you -- not you who have failed the software. BUT, this plays right into the point I was trying to make in my AutoPlay post.

The question is -- exactly what kind of software does "person x" need. If "person x" is in a shopping mall, then they certainly don't need anything more complicated than AutoPlay. If "person X" is Glenn Turner, then they need LivePRO -- or even more!! Paul is (at this point in time) somewhere in between . BUT, unlike the simple minded people in shopping malls, I bet Paul could learn how to use LivePRO.

LivePRO is really complicated software, but we make no bones about that. We put on training classes occasionally -- not by me but by the top LivePRO users, Glenn Turner and Hugo Bunk. Once people attend a class, they really get a lot out of it and can use LivePRO really well. I hold up Kyle Garner as a great example of this. He struggled to use LivePRO in the past, but once he attended a class, he's now a champ!

But the fact of the matter is that not everyone can afford to attend a class. We tried to make a video for LivePRO, but it took 8 hours just for the taping, and tried to hire several people to edit it and put it together, but it never happened.

And in fact, this whole topic plays right into the concept of BEYOND. BEYOND is really the top-top-top laser software for the top-top-top level laserists. But how many are there? Remember "person x" above? What the world needs (right now) is not BEYOND. What the world needs is QuickShow -- which we believe is extremely easy to use softare AND YET offering the power beyond even with LivePRO has to offer.

The fact of the matter is that the internals of QuickShow are exactly BEYOND. And some of the user interface elements within QuickShow are from BEYOND. If you ask Alexey -- our main programmer -- he says this program IS BEYOND! So...

In any event I appreciate the perspective and comments.

Best regards,

William Benner

[norty303]

I think the use of the word idiot and it's intended meaning were entirely clear.

It's just some people don't need much of an excuse to find something to have a pop at.

[Pangolin]

I think the use of the word idiot and it's intended meaning were entirely clear.

It's just some people don't need much of an excuse to find something to have a pop at.

Hehe. No sense giving them something to pop at .

Bill

[White-Light]

Just go with "less technically adept". Very politically correct.

Its still technically means stupid but provides far less ammunition than idiot or simple minded as it only implies simpleness in relation to technical gadgetry not the world at large. People find that easier to swallow as they readily accept they're not good at everything, which lets face it, non of us are.

[Pangolin]

Just go with "less technically adept". Very politically correct.

Its still technically means stupid but provides far less ammunition than idiot or simple minded as it only implies simpleness in relation to technical gadgetry not the world at large. People find that easier to swallow as they readily accept they're not good at everything, which lets face it, non of us are.

Yes, good point. How about if I hire you as a proof-reader?

Bill

[Things]

Can't wait for Quickshow

Need someone to abuse the software for you?

I manage to make almost anything error, I even somehow made Windows explorer block itself

[Pangolin]

Hi Things,

Sure! Just send me a real email (not PL private message) and I'll send you some files to play with. Several PL members have already been playing with it and have had positive things to say. I'd love to get your opinions too!

Bill

[smogthemog]

If I purchase a second hand FB3, what software should it come with, what was it sold with? and will I be able to have/use/download the free LiveQUICK software to use with it?

I am seriously thinking about getting an FB3 and just wondered what the crack was with it re-software?

Thanks

Jim