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Thread: Pangolin overpriced?

  1. #141
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    Bill, you actually missed the point. Flecom was questioning why he couldn't just buy a card. Part of your justification for the price is the content. Flecom doesn't want duplicate content. He just wants to run multiple projectors. I don't think he had an issue with the base price.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    For example, when you buy LD2000, you not only receive the QM2000 board, but you also receive 9 pieces of software, more than 120 (soon to be 150) shows and demos, more than 350,000 (soon to be even more) frames and animations, a Tutorial DVD, plus lifetime free updates.
    Right, again, I am NOT saying that I think LD2000 itself is overpriced, I am saying, those 9 pieces of software, 150 shows, demos, tutorials and frames are a huge cost... so why do I have to buy all that 3 times if I want to run 3 QM cards in one computer?

    do I get 27 pieces of software if I have 3 QM2000's in my computer? 360 shows? 700000 frames? no... so why am I paying 3x more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    At my most recent executive meeting, when I mentioned that keeping up with orders was our biggest problem, two of the execs told me that I need to "put a 1 in front of the price" (i.e. change the price of QS from $595 to $1595). Any Harvard Grad will tell you that -- if supply can't keep up with demand, it's time to raise the price! I have been hesitant on doing something like that, but if the question is -- is "Pangolin" worth it, I think the fact that we can't keep up with demand says -- Yes, Pangolin is worth it!
    obviously you cant keep up because the price of the FB3 is at a point people are willing to pay... making the price $1595 will probably hurt you more than help you... with projectors at all time lows I don't think the market the FB3 is aimed twoards is willing to pay that much... your just going to increase market share of other products while decreasing your own market share... the more happy customers you have the more your stuff will be out there, the more positive word of mouth you have, the more sales you have
    Last edited by flecom; 10-08-2010 at 09:02.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    Bill, you actually missed the point. Flecom was questioning why he couldn't just buy a card. Part of your justification for the price is the content. Flecom doesn't want duplicate content. He just wants to run multiple projectors. I don't think he had an issue with the base price.
    I wasn't commenting exclusively about what Flecom wrote, but rather what others had written as well, and also making overall comments which may be easy to overlook.

    Nevertheless, it is true that -- due to our current selling and licensing model, it is not possible to buy "just the hardware" from us, without software. This is mainly due to 25-year philosophy at Pangolin which says that when you buy our software and hardware, one thing you get is FLEXIBILITY -- meaning, yes, you could use all three QM2000s connected to a single PC to do a single show, or you could use three QM2000s connected to three separate PCs located in three separate cities to do three separate shows all at the same time.

    LD2000 is professional-level software, and our professional users appreciate this flexibility. In fact -- until relatively recently, Lasershow Designer Intro was the least expensive software out there. Remember, Pangolin started its business at a time when Laser Media wanted $27,000 per seat of software -- for ONE SCANNER!!

    So if $1495 is too much for you, no problem. Just get QuickShow! Is that too expensive for you? No problem, just get something from someone else. But each time you decrement the price, you also will generally decrement the capability you have. Anyone see Mercedes Benz for the price of a Yugo? Nope, sorry, that just doesn’t happen in life…

    Even with the QuickShow package we sell at a US Suggested List Price of $595, we have the same philosophy -- one of FLEXIBILITY. As I mentioned abive, we've had this philosophy for the past 25 years, and we're not inclined to change.

    Is this the wrong philosophy to have? Well, I don't know, but I will say that most recently even Phoenix started doing this same thing. Want to control a second projector? Just buy another Phoenix Live (and at a published price higher than QuickShow and the FB3)... So once again our competitors are following us, and when others follow what we are doing, it tends to validate our approach.


    Best regards,

    William Benner

  4. #144
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    Whoa -
    QS 2.0 and LD2000 v5.5!

    Nice!
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    So if $1495 is too much for you, no problem. Just get QuickShow! Is that too expensive for you? No problem, just get something from someone else. But each time you decrement the price, you also will generally decrement the capability you have. Anyone see Mercedes Benz for the price of a Yugo? Nope, sorry, that just doesn’t happen in life…
    Quickshow did not exist when I bought my QM card... and I think your whole philosophy about extra hardware just shows how inflexible you are being vs flexible...

    for the hundredth time I will state in this thread; I am not asking for LD2000 cheaper, I am asking why can't you make expanding an existing system more reasonable?

    I am fairly certain it would not be very difficult for you to make a "stupid" QM card that could not run standalone but only as a slave to a proper licensed QM card...

  6. #146
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    you can absolutely just purchase extra hardware to expand phoenix live and pro+

    live and pro+ can both support 10 dac's (any combo of the 3 or 4 dacs they sell)


    http://shop.phoenix-showcontroller.d...53007692643317

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    I am fairly certain it would not be very difficult for you to make a "stupid" QM card that could not run standalone but only as a slave to a proper licensed QM card...
    I am fairly certain Microsoft could sell Windows Server 2008 R2 for $1000, but they don't. Why? Because they need to keep building those unnecessary campus buildings in Redmond and providing soda/juice for free to their enslaved employees. Oh wait, no, because they can and they make money that way.

    I am fairly certain nVidia could sell their Quadro FX 5800 for $500, but they don't. Why? Because they're big mean corporate jerks and they'd grab you by your legs and shake you up and down until money falls out if it weren't for the legal implications. Hmmm, nope -because they can and it makes sense, financially.

    Stop beating the dead horse please. I am forced to picture you at age 8, stamping your feet in anger because you're not getting your way. Just because you and a certain demographic of Pangolin-customers and non-Pangolin-customers have feelings about their pricing structure and what they offer, doesn't mean it reflects the whole of their customer base, and even if it did, it is totally Pangolin's prerogative to charge whatever they please for said products and offer whatever hardware they deem suitable.

    I am getting so tired of hearing this rhetoric. It's always a dead end and it's usually the same people bringing it up again like it's going to change the answers that were provided before.


    -Jonathan

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by platinum View Post
    I am fairly certain Microsoft could sell Windows Server 2008 R2 for $1000, but they don't. Why? Because they need to keep building those unnecessary campus buildings in Redmond and providing soda/juice for free to their enslaved employees. Oh wait, no, because they can and they make money that way.

    I am fairly certain nVidia could sell their Quadro FX 5800 for $500, but they don't. Why? Because they're big mean corporate jerks and they'd grab you by your legs and shake you up and down until money falls out if it weren't for the legal implications. Hmmm, nope -because they can and it makes sense, financially.

    Stop beating the dead horse please. I am forced to picture you at age 8, stamping your feet in anger because you're not getting your way. Just because you and a certain demographic of Pangolin-customers and non-Pangolin-customers have feelings about their pricing structure and what they offer, doesn't mean it reflects the whole of their customer base, and even if it did, it is totally Pangolin's prerogative to charge whatever they please for said products and offer whatever hardware they deem suitable.

    I am getting so tired of hearing this rhetoric. It's always a dead end and it's usually the same people bringing it up again like it's going to change the answers that were provided before.


    -Jonathan
    I'm sorry your absolutely right, I am not entitled to my opinion

    anyway, sure, 2008 R2 is expensive, but I don't have to buy an extra copy of 2008 R2 for every processor I have in my server... or every network card I add to my server...

    and actually if you need a bunch of copies of 2008 R2 for whatever reason you can open a Volume License but thats irrelevant to this discussion

    an NVidia Quattro card comes with no software, its just hardware, so I have no idea how you are even drawing a comparison there

    see how your analogies are flawed?

    and while I always appreciate being compared to a child I don't see how any of my arguments are illogical or nonsensical... last time I checked this was not Pangolin's message board so an open discussion on their policies and practices seems valid to me... maybe I am wrong? If so The Janitor can feel free to correct me

    additionally this is a free country (for now) so if you don't like the fact this thread exists, don't click on it, problem solved
    Last edited by flecom; 10-08-2010 at 22:31.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by VJ AIWAZ View Post
    you can absolutely just purchase extra hardware to expand phoenix live and pro+
    I am not sure if their "shop" is as up to date as the literature they hand out at tradeshows. All I know is that the latest literature says that if you want more controllers, just buy more Phoenix Live.

    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    I am fairly certain it would not be very difficult for you to make a "stupid" QM card that could not run standalone but only as a slave to a proper licensed QM card...
    Hehe. I always love it when people tell us how easy our job should be. My response is always the same. If you can do it, we'll hire you!! SERIOUSLY!! Just prove what you can do and we'll put you to work right away, because if you'd be able to do this, then you should be working with us on our next-generation platform for laser professionals...

    Quote Originally Posted by platinum View Post
    It's always a dead end and it's usually the same people bringing it up again like it's going to change the answers that were provided before.
    Actually this is not necessarily a dead-end. We like to hear what people have to say, even when it is contrary to our policies. We do change our minds. After all, we never offered demo software before, and now a demo of QuickShow is available, and a demo of our text messaging software will be available soon too. We have made changes to our web site as a result of comments from clients and would-be clients. So we definitely take all comments seriously. It's just in this case, the answer is not as easy as Flecom thinks. And if we did offer some kind of reduced-price QM2000 that could only be used along with other QM2000s, sooner or later people would get confused (hmmm, which QM2000 is the one that works with software?) and inevitably, there would be complaints about why all of them don't work with software, etc. So in this case, we're not inclined to change our policies right now, but we always reserve the right to change our minds


    Best regards,

    William Benner
    Last edited by Pangolin; 10-09-2010 at 02:18. Reason: Added reply to platinum's comments

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    see how your analogies are flawed?
    No, not really. I made those comparisons because those are professional level products that are in a similar price range to QM2000 Intro, but more to the point, they are products sold by established companies that set their prices based on supply and demand. (this is a common business practice...)

    Quote Originally Posted by flecom View Post
    additionally this is a free country (for now) so if you don't like the fact this thread exists, don't click on it, problem solved
    I like this statement because I can be smug too and respond with a sentence like: "If you don't like Pangolin's pricing etc, don't buy Pangolin. Problem solved."

    Thanks,

    -Jonathan

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