Pangolin overpriced?

[Pangolin]

The great thing with Mamba compared to Pangolin, is that in Mamba you have the frames editor in the same software than the one you use for creating shows. I miss that a lot...

Aron already mentioned that you can have both programs open and running at the same time.

Also things like frames movements and sizing along the tracks are more intuitive in Mamba, as there's a graphic representation, while in Pangolin it's only sliders (in fact, you have both in Mamba).

There are actually both in Pangolin as well, but you have to know how to access/ use it... I believe you would benefit from a training session, or from attending a Pangolin User Meeting or PL meeting.

but with Pangolin you can make some more complex things, according you fully understand the software, and you have some serious time to spend...

We are positioning what you called "Pangolin" (which is really LD2000) as the software for true laser professionals. You generally need a bit of training to get teh full benefit out of LD2000.

We are positioning Lasershow Designer QuickShow as software "for the rest of us". If you want to do things quickly, we don't believe there is any other software that will be as easy or fast as QuickShow.

Now hardware speaking, I only have the FB3 so it's comparable to the Easylase.

Are you sure about that? Where's Buffo when you need him ?

We would say that there is a substantial difference between the FB3 and easylase...

About the bug, they both have quite a lot

Really? A lot? I believe others would argue with you on that point...

We certainly would like to hear if people are having problems with the software, so that we can solve them.


Best regards,

William Benner

[Things]

The only time I have ever had a crash with Pangolin FB3 is in LAstudio designer, but then again, I don't know how to properly use it, so it's most likely my own fault

[sbk]

Aron already mentioned that you can have both programs open and running at the same time.

Well, but only in LD2000 if I understand well

There are actually both in Pangolin as well, but you have to know how to access/ use it... I believe you would benefit from a training session, or from attending a Pangolin User Meeting or PL meeting.

I would love to see this! But again, maybe you are speaking of LD2000 only... And I'd love to attend to a PL meeting, but they unfold always very far from me

We are positioning what you called "Pangolin" (which is really LD2000) as the software for true laser professionals. You generally need a bit of training to get teh full benefit out of LD2000.

We are positioning Lasershow Designer QuickShow as software "for the rest of us". If you want to do things quickly, we don't believe there is any other software that will be as easy or fast as QuickShow.

That's certainly a thing I didn't explained well, I'm sorry for that. I was speaking rather of LAStudio. And I can't wait to try Quickshow

Are you sure about that? Where's Buffo when you need him ?
We would say that there is a substantial difference between the FB3 and easylase...

Basically that's DAC with 4x 8 bits color channels and 2x 12 bits channels for scanners, not? The obvious advantage are that the FB3 can be bus powered, it's smaller, and can operate as standalone (you can do this with Easylase, but with an add on card). But as I'm not an expert in these hardware, please correct me.

Really? A lot? I believe others would argue with you on that point...
We certainly would like to hear if people are having problems with the software, so that we can solve them.

Not really a lot (It's sometimes difficult to explain me in a foreign language, I would have say "un peu beaucoup" ), but some annoying one... Like the loop playing : no way to play a show in loop, nor a portion of the show in loop. I already made a post about this, but I had no solution.

There's some other bugs, like sometimes the show stops and a popup appears with an error message, or a bug on the color change in Showrider Live, but that remains "acceptable bugs" to me.


Well, I should really have mentionned that I was only speaking of the LAStudio suite (Showrider, etc). I didn't know LD2000 and I have no doubt it should be another higher level. But I wanted to compare what's comparable with other softwares of its class, like Mamba (as LD2000 comes only with the much higher priced QM2000).

My intentions was to point out that other softwares aren't just unusable and inefficient compared to Pangolin (while staying in the same class), as we can believe when reading some comments here. I was capable to create great shows with both softwares, so that's the most important point, not?

This being said, I changed to FB3 and (Pangolin) LAStudio because I had only the intro version of Mamba (2004), and I had some issues with Medialas upgrades (no way to upgrade my software because it was too old, as they said, so I would have to pay the entire Mamba Black which isn't cheap ), so I took a look on the other side, and was not disappointed

[norty303]

Just to add on the frames editor bit, I'm using FB3 and LivePro and it just yesterday hit me how much of an omission this is. LivePro seems to include just about everything else you'd want in one package, but no frames editor. Even LiveQ has one. And if you're an FB3 user (correct me if I'm wrong please) you cannot have LivePro and Showrider, Draw3D or LiveQ open simultaneously. It makes for one incredibly frustrating user experience, especially as in LivePro you're generally only wanting to create very simple shapes. Then add the fact that the LiveQ generated lsp files aren't the lsp files supported by LivePro.... I had a few sweary moments last night, but other than that it's still great value for money.

[mixedgas]

, Draw3D or LiveQ open simultaneously. It makes for one incredibly frustrating user experience, especially as in LivePro you're generally only wanting to create very simple shapes. Then add the fact that the LiveQ generated lsp files aren't the lsp files supported by LivePro.... I had a few sweary moments last night, but other than that it's still great value for money.[/QUOTE]

end quote:

Perhaps you can run "Anarchy" as your simple editor, its out there.

Steve

[heroic]

We would say that there is a substantial difference between the FB3 and easylase...

I dunno, Bill, most of us never use the memory card facility (except as somewhere for the FB3 to store its firmware). Once you get to the point where you're only really using "direct mode" on the FB3 (ie., LivePro, LiveQ or ShowRider), the EasyLase is really quite similar in operation to the FB3. The differences being approximately:

- the EasyLase has an open programming model and is supported on many platforms

- the EasyLase is slightly larger and very slightly cheaper

- the EasyLase has TTL outputs you can trigger strobes from

- the EasyLase has DMX out as well as DMX in

- the EasyLase has dual buffers so it doesn't have the buffer refill delay the FB3 seems to have (from my measurements of the laser output power when outputting a circle with scanners disconnected)

- some versions of the FB3 don't have differential outputs (though you have apparently changed this for the current model)

- the EasyLase will scan points at any speed you like (I think the limit is like 65k)

- the EasyLase is slightly less prone to line noise on the USB (but I have this one fogger, see, that consistently spazzes the FB3 out when used with long-ass USB cables)

- the FB3 comes with (better) software, but is closed; the EasyLase comes with none, but you can do all kinds of cool hacks with it

- the FB3 can be bus powered

- the FB3 has useful LEDs

Did I miss any?

-J.

[norty303]

end quote:

Perhaps you can run "Anarchy" as your simple editor, its out there.

Yeah, but I guess that wasn't really my point. I see LiveQ as a poor mans LivePro, but even LiveQ has the ability to create and edit a slot 'in situ'. As far as having a seemless creative process goes, it's like owning the sweetest handling sports car, on the nicest flowing piece of tarmac ever laid, then someone building a brick wall across it. Why should I have to create a flat line in another application, save it there, then close it, open LivePro, import the frame. By the same token I can create some enormously complex shapes and effects directly in the slot (Abstraction, key effects generator), and very intuitively.

It's as if it just got left out of the box by mistake. Of course it could be due to the porting of LivePro to FB3 that has caused the problem, as LD2k owners have a compatible editor available to them.

Interested to see what Quickshow brings (any sign of that download yet?)

[toast]

As a beginning hobbyist with much less of a budget than Dstar, Pangolin’s price structure also stopped me getting Pango'd. Just in case Bill is interested, this was the possibly-flawed reasoning behind the decision;

I'm planning on slowly building a three-projector beam show system - each projector with its own DAC. In autumn last year, three FB3's cost more than twice the price of three miniLumax's with some respectable software (HE Laserscan, if memory serves). This was true even after adding an allowance to reflect the risk of buying the miniLumax's from Laserworld on Ebay.

The option of running three copies of Pangolin's software at the same time probably isn’t something most hobbyists want or need. I certainly don't need it.

I also wasn't attracted to the relative closedness of Pangolin’s system. If (god forbid) Pangolin go bust or stop catering to hobbyists, it would be hard to get extra/replacement DAC's. If (god be praised) Laserworld go bust, there’ll still be plenty of other places to buy DAC's that’ll work with whatever non-Pangolin software I'm using at the time.

With the non-Pangolin DAC’s, if there's something my current software won't do, someone's probably already written some software to fill the gap. With Pangolin, I get the impression that there are fewer gap-filling alternatives. Maybe this is partly because there are fewer gaps. The trouble is, it's really hard to tell how true this is without a try-before-you-buy option for the software bundle.

Despite all this, if the FB3 was priced separately from its bundled software or if second and third FB3’s were priced lower than the first, I might still have gone for Pangolin because of the overwhelmingly positive reviews.

[Things]

If Pangolin did go bust for whatever reason, I'm sure they wouldn't just ditch everyone and run. Even if they couldn't make the DAC's anymore, you don't need a business to make software

[daedal]

As a beginning hobbyist with much less of a budget than Dstar, Pangolin’s price structure also stopped me getting Pango'd. Just in case Bill is interested, this was the possibly-flawed reasoning behind the decision;

I'm planning on slowly building a three-projector beam show system - each projector with its own DAC. In autumn last year, three FB3's cost more than twice the price of three miniLumax's with some respectable software (HE Laserscan, if memory serves). This was true even after adding an allowance to reflect the risk of buying the miniLumax's from Laserworld on Ebay.

The option of running three copies of Pangolin's software at the same time probably isn’t something most hobbyists want or need. I certainly don't need it.

I also wasn't attracted to the relative closedness of Pangolin’s system. If (god forbid) Pangolin go bust or stop catering to hobbyists, it would be hard to get extra/replacement DAC's. If (god be praised) Laserworld go bust, there’ll still be plenty of other places to buy DAC's that’ll work with whatever non-Pangolin software I'm using at the time.

With the non-Pangolin DAC’s, if there's something my current software won't do, someone's probably already written some software to fill the gap. With Pangolin, I get the impression that there are fewer gap-filling alternatives. Maybe this is partly because there are fewer gaps. The trouble is, it's really hard to tell how true this is without a try-before-you-buy option for the software bundle.

Despite all this, if the FB3 was priced separately from its bundled software or if second and third FB3’s were priced lower than the first, I might still have gone for Pangolin because of the overwhelmingly positive reviews.

I believe they have an SDK... any software can be made to work with Pango hardware... Anyone can develop software that can work with Pango hardware... I believe Mamba can even be made to work on LD2K using this linkable library somehow (special driver perhaps?)

--DDL