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Thread: Wicked Lasers' new lasers

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    According to their website, they are spending a bunch of money on advertising by giving away high-powered pointers to a large number of people so they will write reviews about Wicked Lasers' new product line. Steve has contacted many people here on PL, including me, with this offer.

    I was initially opposed to the idea on the grounds that high-powered laser pointers are illegal in this country, so I didn't want to be seen as promoting such illegal activity. More to the point, I felt that these lasers were being recklessly marketed to people who did not have the knowledge to operate them safely. (You know the type of person I'm talking about... "What stuff can I burn with this laser?" Or my personal favorite: "How far will the beam travel?") And I really didn't want to encourage that.

    I feel that the widespread misuse of high-powered laser pointers will inevitably lead to more legal restrictions, if not an outright ban, on the ownership and use of lasers for display purposes in this country. As such, I felt it was my obligation to discourage the sale of such pointers, particularly when they are blatantly marketed to the uneducated.

    However, in an effort to be fair, I did tell Steve that I would consider his offer if his products were brought into compliance with US regulations. That means a keyswitch, an emission indicator, proper labeling, etc... (All the things that make a lab laser different from a pointer.) And it does appear that they have filed a laser product report for some of their new lasers. Though without a copy of the actual report, it is impossible to tell what has been added or changed to the design, or if they are indeed in compliance or not.

    If they have, in fact, upgraded the product to bring it into compliance, then that is a welcomed first step. If they go the extra mile by warning people (both on their website and in the product packaging) of the dangers of these lasers, especially when it comes to aircraft, then I might actually consent to a review. After all, I think we can all agree that hand-held lasers can be cool and interesting, if handled appropriately. Also, I've seen several "hot" laser pointers in the hands of both commercial laserists and senior ILDA members alike, so it's not as if they can't be owned and used safely.

    But this is a very touchy subject for me. There is a big difference between the homebrew laser enthusiast who assembles his own red laser for use in a projector and some "pointer jockey" who just wants to know how fast he can burn through black electrical tape. I don't worry about the laser enthusiast ever pointing his home-built red laser at a police helicopter, for example.

    Adam
    This is a great take on the subject. I agree completely. I believe they actually include an aircraft warning on the danger label of each system, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

    @idfx64: Justin is one of the biggest competitors of Wicked, and while I feel that Laserglow is far superior to Wicked, his input is tainted.

    A document has been provided by Steve (representative of Wicked) that shows that accession numbers have been applied for and are pending approval. Approval has not been given yet, but the process has been started. Here's the link: http://www.wickedlasers.com/images/fda/0910213.pdf

    It looks authentic to me, but I'm not an expert in these things.

  2. #12
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    i think the effort *MAY* be there for wicked. but i think it STILL falls short.

    filing a product report means ABSOLTELY nothing! Product reports can be filed for a toaster oven. its a good gesture, it shows at least SOME effort and responsibility, HOWEVER...the CONTENTS of that product report and if indeed the product is in accordance with that product report is what REALLY means something.

    i can send in a product report today for a blowdryer with a 52 watt handheld co2 laser in it that is designed to melt skin and get an FDA accession # for it. all the accession is a number that corresponds to the submission.

    in that report are the specifics which denote HOW and WHY this particular item is in compliance with applicable laws. (shutters, keys, labels, delays...etc...etc...) where ever there is law in place (regulation) in which the product does not comply with that particular law/regulation than a SEPARATE variance MUST be submitted stating what this particular product does not need to abide by those specific regulations. Or the variance must provide sufficient info as to alternative precautions to over ride the specific given regulation(s).

    in other words, NO...NONE....ZERO...handheld battery operated "Laser Pointers" will EVER be "Legal" in the United States. If, as of now, Wicked or ANY other manufacturer is claiming their "Laser pointer" (above 5mw) is "Legal" in the United States i would STRONGLY URGE you to question it!!

    there are NO laser pointers that I am aware of which have a shutter, delayd lasing, aperture attenuator(s), emmission indicators, PROPER (notice the word "PROPER") Labeling, keyed operation and submitted VALID and authentic product reports for them!

    Applying for and/or submitting paperwork DOES NOT constitute approval!!

    the most important question here is, does Wicked Lasers STILL boast that there lasers posess "Open Cut Healing Power?"

    (IF i am supplied with SUFFICIENT documents of any such pointers or approvals, I will publically apologize. I have been known to be incorrect once or twice in my life! )

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  3. #13
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    I would say BAN laserpointer discussions in this forum.

    In belgium another 2 people got severe eye damage because of someone "playing" with a high power pointer.

  4. #14
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    ^You could do that, but as much as folks might hate to admit it, laser pointers are the dominant part of the laser hobby and there is much worthy innovation concerning diode lasers that begins with laser pointers, not to mention the fact that it brings people into the hobby so that they can discover the better parts, like laser shows and scientific usage.

    I don't even build laser pointers myself (that's not to say I never have), but I can see value in much of what goes on in the laser pointer world. Here's a prime example:

    http://laserpointerforums.com/f45/do...als-42495.html

    In this thread someone (who is not a member of PL that I am aware of) builds their own DPSS laser from scratch and documents the entire process. I have not seen any thread on the subject here that is as detailed and that's only one thread. (to be fair I haven't read every thread here on Pl) There are many more advanced discussions that happen on LPF regularly.

    As much as people here dislike LPF and pointers, they're here to stay and I'll even go so far as to say they are a valuable resource. Sure there are plenty of bonehead members, and sure there is a lot of bad advice, but there are a LOT more people over there than there are here and they are generally a lot younger too. You're bound to get some retards.. Fortunately there are also a lot of knowledgeable members and I dare say they do a fairly good job of keeping things real.

    You're always going to have dumbasses. Taking away the objects that they might use for their follies does not ever change the fact that they are still dumbasses. If someone bans all guns, some retard is just going to go stab or beat someone to death. If we ban laser pointers, the dumbasses that are using them stupidly will still behave stupidly in some other fashion.

    I think that some of the members here just get off on trying to make themselves feel superior in some way.. instead of making blanket statements, you could spend some time weeding through LPF.. you might learn something. You'll probably get a laugh from some retarded member, but I trust everyone here is smart enough to tell the difference between a dumbass and a quality individual with real contributions.

    EDIT: I misread your statement and the fact that it is limited to PL. I withdraw what I said about making blanket statements, but I stand behind the rest..
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 08-26-2009 at 15:23.

  5. #15
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    I dont think banning laser pointers is needed. Although like 50% of people with pointers just want to burn tape and light matches (and point at airplanes > ), there are some people with legitimate uses. Laser pointers can be a very handy tool for people, and are not bad at all when used safely.

    It's quite obvious Wicked are trying to get their names and new products out, but what I have seen of this laser, they seem to be improving. I also just want to make sure, even though they are sending me free lasers, I am in no way biased! Infact, I never compare companies to other companies when it comes to things like lasers.

    Some of you have bad idea's about pointers, I see what you mean, and I agree somewhat. I agree there is way too many people just wanting to buy a pointer and wreak any havoc they can with it, I am kind of tired of it, but Wicked send these lasers out so you do reviews on them, not to give more people tools for shooting down planes.


    Quote Originally Posted by buffo View Post
    But this is a very touchy subject for me. There is a big difference between the homebrew laser enthusiast who assembles his own red laser for use in a projector and some "pointer jockey" who just wants to know how fast he can burn through black electrical tape. I don't worry about the laser enthusiast ever pointing his home-built red laser at a police helicopter, for example.

    Adam
    I agree, people that shine lasers at planes wouldnt have the knowledge to assemble their own working laser (especially green!). They simply go to websites like "O-like", dealextreme etc and buy the cheapest, highest powered thing possible. Dealextreme have since banned shipping lasers over 5mw to the US, which I believe is a great thing. Once the FDA cracks down on more and more of these cheap laser sites, we should see a decline in these incidents.

    Building a red laser is relatively easy, but as you would know, the human eye is no where near as sensitive to it, so red lasers arent (at the current time) a real threat to pilots, but on the ground they can still cause problems!

    Anyone agree we should have a stupidity test on each laser forum and site selling lasers?!?!
    Last edited by Things; 08-26-2009 at 23:15.

  6. #16
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    I agree the laser pointer community is a great resource, but I see more and more people bringing there high power pointers to raves, clubs, bars festivals etc. and playing with the pointers and point them at people faces

    I think its just a dangerous toy, and it is too easy to have an accident with it.

    Also I cannot see the real use of a laser pointer.

    Burning stuff: useless, get a magnifying glass an go out on sunny day if you want to burn stuff.

    Astronomy: I believe pointing to the sky is illegal in the first place and to make this work you also need more than 1mW 532, and therefor it is dangerous and illegal in Europe.

    If you like the coherent beam (like all of us), just build a projector and you can create much nicer beams.
    Last edited by mccarrot; 08-27-2009 at 03:46.

  7. #17
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    You,re absolutely right MCCARROT. The thing is that people like to bring it to party,s because they look great but they dont acctualy know what it,s capable of and what the dangerous are. I think most of the people are not interested in reading the manual for example. Try to tell someone how a light switch works or ask what the voltage is from the net they probably dont know because they are simply not interested.
    My opinion make them iligal and make canabis legal

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    I believe they actually include an aircraft warning on the danger label of each system, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
    This is one of the things I'm trying to verify now. I've been in pretty regular contact with Steve at Wicked lasers about this whole thing, and I have to say that he has been very good about providing information to answer my questions thus far.
    Quote Originally Posted by gottaluvlasers View Post
    i think the effort *MAY* be there for wicked. but i think it STILL falls short. Filing a product report means ABSOLTELY nothing! Product reports can be filed for a toaster oven. its a good gesture, it shows at least SOME effort and responsibility, HOWEVER...the CONTENTS of that product report and if indeed the product is in accordance with that product report is what REALLY means something.
    I agree that an accession number by itself is meaningless Marc, and I told Steve exactly this. However, he has agreed to go the extra step for me. I requested a copy of the laser product report so I could see for myself exactly what the new features of these lasers are. He agreed, but for trade secret reasons I will need to keep the report confidential. Nonetheless, I should be able to comment on whether the new design meets the specific requirements of 21CFR1040.10 and .11 More on this later after I've had a chance to pour over the laser product report.
    NO...NONE....ZERO...handheld battery operated "Laser Pointers" will EVER be "Legal" in the United States. If, as of now, Wicked or ANY other manufacturer is claiming their "Laser pointer" (above 5mw) is "Legal" in the United States i would STRONGLY URGE you to question it!!
    I had a long discussion with Patrick Murphy about this last night, and while you are correct in saying that a laser "POINTER" can not legally exceed 5 mw, the key here is the definition of "pointer".

    Technically, there is nothing illegal about a battery-powered, hand-held laser that is rated for multiple WATTS of output, provided that it has the proper safety labels, interlocks, emission indicator, shutter, keyswitch, power-on delay, and so fourth. It's only when you start calling it a "pointer", or marketing it as a pointer, that such a device becomes illegal.

    So there are two pieces to this puzzle. One is that the laser must incorporate all the safety features required of any other retail laser system. And the other is that it must *not* be marketed specifically as pointer. To that I would add a third requirement, and that is that any hand-held laser should also carry labeling warning the user to never shine the laser at or near aircraft. (See ILDA's Laser Pointer Safety website for some examples of such labeling.)
    the most important question here is, does Wicked Lasers STILL boast that their lasers posses "Open Cut Healing Power?"
    I was not aware that they ever made such a claim. If they did, that would put them squarely in medical laser territory, and trying to get a hand-held laser photo-coagulator approved by the CDRH would be a monumental task indeed. I would hope that they would be smart enough to avoid making any medical claims of their products.
    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    as much as folks might hate to admit it, laser pointers are the dominant part of the laser hobby and there is much worthy innovation concerning diode lasers that begins with laser pointers, not to mention the fact that it brings people into the hobby so that they can discover the better parts, like laser shows and scientific usage.
    I agree with this, and I would also like to add something that I find rather amusing: Despite the fact that many laser show enthusiast's look down on the pointer jocky crowd, most of us own several high-powered laser pointers ourselves! So on the one hand we're talking about how dangerous and illegal these hand-held devices are, and on the other hand we're playing with them at every Laser Enthusiast's Meeting. Hypocritical much?

    I am as guilty of this as anyone else. I currently have a 180 mw green pointer, and I enjoy it very much. It does not have any safety interlocks or labels. It is the very definition of an illegal pointer. And I'll wager that most members here on PL have something similar. Now, I didn't import this laser (I bought it from a felow laser enthusiast) and I'm certainly not going to sell it. But the fact that I have it (and enjoy it) goes to show that there needs to be some middle ground here. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not an appropriate defense here.

    I could still have just as much fun with this laser if it had a keyswitch, and an emission indicator, and proper labeling. I think I could even live with it if it had a power-on delay, so long as once the timer expired I could open and close the shutter at will to turn it on and off when I wanted to. And such a hand-held laser *could* be legally marketed here in the US, provided it was not marketed specifically as a pointer. This might mean increasing the package size to something close to a maglight flashlight, but that's the price we'll need to pay if we want to play by the rules. I'm OK with that.
    You're always going to have dumbasses. Taking away the objects that they might use for their follies does not ever change the fact that they are still dumbasses. If someone bans all guns, some retard is just going to go stab or beat someone to death. If we ban laser pointers, the dumbasses that are using them stupidly will still behave stupidly in some other fashion.
    The problem with the guns analogy is that we've got the 2nd ammendment to protect our right to own guns. There is no ammendment to protect the right to own lasers. Thus, if we allow the careless (or even reckless) use of high-powered laser pointers to continue, we run the very real risk of having our hobby legislated out of existence. So while there may always be dumb asses out there, if we don't do what we can to stop them from being dumb asses with lasers, we may not have any lasers to play with in the future. That's why I think it's a worthy goal to work with a manufacturer to create a product that is both legal and safer than what is currently out there. If we can encourage them to include some training material with their products as well, it's possible we can curb the number of aircraft illumination incidents. (Which, in my opinion, is the single greatest threat to our hobby right now.)
    I think that some of the members here just get off on trying to make themselves feel superior in some way.. instead of making blanket statements, you could spend some time weeding through LPF.. you might learn something.
    Although this wasn't addressed to me, I'd still like to comment on it. There are no doubt some very smart people on LPF. Heck, some of the most respected members here on PL also post over there. (LaserMan532 and FrothyChimp, I'm looking at you guys!) But the signal to noise ration on LPF is low. You said it best: "weed through LPF"... Ugh. That's an arduous task. If I'm going to spend 3 or 4 hours a day (every day) on a forum, I want it to be on one where my time is not wasted. (You do know that I read each and every message here, right?)

    Here on PL I can spend 3 hours reading messages and come away with new knowledge and stimulating conversation. On LPF, that might happen once every 5 days or so (and I'm being generous). I'm sorry, but I don't have the extra time to waste. No - scratch that. I don't *want* to waste the extra time. I have other things I'd rather do.

    Am I missing out on some good information? Absolutely. But I'm also not wasting my precious time reading page after page of tripe from a bunch of pointer jockeys. Does that make me an elitist? No - it just means that I don't have a lot of free time, and I've already made a huge commitment to PL. I don't have time for another laser forum - particularly one with such a low signal to noise ratio.

    Adam

  9. #19
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    my problem with wicked and many other "pointer" manufacturers is that they are marketed and aimed toward a market (for the most part) that has NO NEED for 300mW handheld lasers. if you need to point out a star, you DO NOT need a 300mw laser. stars have been being pointed out for centuries with fingers and telescopes and a good 5mw-10mw can also VERY EASILY point out a star.

    Wicked used to promote their lasers and last i checked, still did promote their lasers as having "open cut healing power!" are you kidding me?? a laser pointer? Open cut healing power? that is 500% irresponsible for ANY laser manufacturer to boast about their product. PERIOD!! END OF STORY!! unless it is deisgnated as a medical grade laser. in which case, Wicked wouldnt be selling them. LOOK HERE
    this article has NO BUSINESS being on wicked lasers website. i dont care HOW it is tried to be justified!! a LASER POINTER that takes AA or AAA batteries IS NOT A MEDICAL LASER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!

    adam, i agree with you 100% i love pointers. they are fun as hell. but i, you, and 99% of th epeople on this forum know the restrictions and limits of a "laser pointer." you are not going to take your laser pointer and try to self medicate yourself to fix an open cut. or to lase off skin abrasions.

    what makes pointers fun (the portability, power and convenience) is also what makes them dangerous and illegal in the U.S. yes, of course almost EVERY laserist has a pointer and loves it. i have probably 5 of them. but i dont perform surgery with mine. i dont aim mine in the sky, let alone at aircraft, i dont think my pointers can shoot 80+ miles which is another false ad that wicked boats and it annoys the CRAP out of me.

    i used to be VERY active over at wicked. there were and probably still are a ton of great guys over there. and also brilliant minds. THOSE are not the people that are abusing lasers.

    these laser pointer manufacturers make it WAAAAY too easy to put WAAAY too much power into peoples hands that have NO BUSINESS owning ANY SUCH powerful tool! a little danger sticker or a 10 point font on a piece of paper inside of a box is NOT going to curb ANY ILLEGAL acts or dangerous practices of laser usage.

    laser pointers DO HAVE a place in our industry. UNDER THE PROPER CONDIOTNS AND UNDER THE PROPER AUTHORITY!!! they are fun, they are educational, they are useful. BUT they are also RUINING our industry!!!

    Companies that false advertise specifications of "laser pointers" or boast similarities of their product to medical grade products should be held lible for negligence. that is just ABSURD, irresponsible, dangerous and quite franky, STUPID!!!

    if i ever showed up to ANY SORT of a medical appt. and the doctor pulled out his trusty laser pointer to perform a medical procedure OF ANY SORT on me, he would be picking his teeth up off of the ground!!!

    there is WAAAY too much irresponsibility on the part of laser pointer manufacturers. i will tell you all now, i would be a millionaire right now (QUITE literally by the way) if i sold laser pointers (which i could.) i get AT LEAST 20 inquiries per week regarding the sale of them. but i choose not to because i have seen and heard too much BULLSHIT regarding their uses!!!

    laser pointers are, always have been, always will be....LASER POINTERS. THAT IS IT!!! they ar enot medical tools. they are not light show lasers. they are not landing lights for runways, they are not photo coagulators, they are not light houses for boats pulling into harbors, they are not beams of light that shoot 80 miles. THEAY ARE LASER POINTERS.

    if they were marketed as such, if they were LEGITIMATELY controlled, if they followed the same laws I HAVE TO FOLLOW, if they were meant to be used as educational or "fun" tools i would support them 100%.

    but as of now, that is NOT the case!!!

    -Marc
    http://www.laserist.org/images/ildalogos/ILDA-logo_colored-beams_Corporate_150w.jpg

    ILDA- U.S. Laser Regulatory Committee

    Authorized Dealer for:

    • Pangolin Laser Software and Hardware
    • KVANT Laser Modules & Laser Systems
    • X-Laser USA
    • CNI Lasers
    • Cambridge Technology & Eye Magic Professional Scanning Systems

    FDA/CDRH Certified Professional LuminanceRGB Laser Light Show Systems


  10. #20
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    100% in agreement here.. I'm am completely unsurprised by the fact that a Chinese laser company would place outrageous claims on their website, though.

    There should be a limit as to how much power is allowed to be used in a pointer. I have said many times before that there is no reason to have much more than 100mW in a green pointer. The visibility is great, you can burn some things (if that's your thing) and it's not TOO dangerous.. Anything above that is too much of a hazard. Having a class 4 laser pointer is just ridiculous, and there's absolutely no reason for them to exist. In the wrong hands they are as dangerous as firearms.

    To overlook the value of the laser pointer community as a whole is short sighted and narrow minded, which was the point of my last post.

    @buffo: I certainly can understand not wanting to weed through so much crap, but I know you get my point..
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 08-27-2009 at 14:03.

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