Wicked Lasers' new lasers

[ixfd64]

I don't think we should ban discussions on laser pointers just because some idiots are misusing them. However, I wouldn't mind if there was some sort of rule against, say, posting pictures of lasers being fired into the sky (like on CPF).

By the way, Wicked just sent me a 200 mW "Spyder I Pro" laser to review. I'll try to have the review finished in a week.

[buffo]

i LOOOVE arguning with you. its like arguing with my brother without the, "Well, YOOOU'RE the dummy!!!"

It's OK Marc - I'm not really arguing with you anyway. I personally feel very much the same as you do about this issue. But you know me - I can't contain the pedantic physics geek inside me!

"TECHNICALLY" a 55mW laser could be seen as some glimmer of light about 15 miles away? Ok, Ill give you that! HOWEVER---Where does it state that that circumstance is ONLY achievable if you are looking TOWARD the source, on a dry day, with VERY little particulate in the air, and with VERY little polution?? Again, it goes back to the deceiving aspect. And THATS what PISSES ME OFF about Companies. Whether it is lasers or cars or Computers.

Very well put. I agree that deceiving people is a common problem with many different companies, including some laser manufacturers. I also agree that the whole idea of claiming that a laser is visible for X miles is misleading by it's very nature. That's basically my point above: a laser beam can travel *very* far if the conditions are just right (all the way to the moon and back even!), so it's pointless to use it as a marketing tool. (Especially when you don't spell out the conditions, making it easy for the customer to assume very different conditions from what is actually possible.) But there is more to this issue, as you'll see below:

99.9% of the world who sees these claims will say WOWWWW.....if i buy this teeny tiny AA battery operated Super Duper Laser of the gods, NOT ONLY can i perfrom surgery on myself, but i can shoot laser beams across town and across states and signal E.T. on the planet "Xenophobo."

HAHA! You're right, of course. And yet this fixation on the "distance" that the beam travels is a BIG DEAL among the uneducated pointer-jockey crowd. And the reason it bothers me is because it betrays their utter lack of knowledge when it comes to physics. Yet, because they are dumb enough to ask, many companies (including Wicked) play this "distance" card for all it's worth. I'm not sure who I hold in higher contempt - the people making the claims or the fools who are asking for them in the first place.

I have seen MANY wicked products. they honestly are TOP NOTCH. they are GREAT quality.

Well, I have not seen their products yet, but I'm considering doing a review for them. First though I want to find out more about what they are doing.

That company lost EVERY BIT of my respect though becasue it went from a "Laser Pointer" manufacturer to a light show laser manufacturer to a smoke alarm hazard tool finder to a surgery tool for hospital rooms to landing runway light company for 747's to a fireworks fuse igniting system to a self medicating medical tool for 15 year olds to use at recess in school.

Well, I agree that the surgery tool application and the self-medicating medical tool application are both innapropriate and should be removed from the list. Those are clearly *NOT* appropriate uses for a laser unless it is MEDICALLY CERTIFIED, and as far as I've been able to determine, none of Wicked Lasers' products are medically certified. Also, the runway landing light idea is grossly irresponsible and highly illegal, so I have a *big* problem with that one.

The smoke alarm hazard tool finder is very odd, but I can't see anything illegal about it, and the lighting fuses for fireworks is perhaps unprofessional, but otherwise not illegal in any way. (Burning uses are allowed, it's just pointing, alignment, and surveying uses in a hand-held laser that are limited to 5 mw or less, according to the CDRH.)

I'm glad that they (Wicked) are trying to make a hand-held system that is legal, because truthfully I *LIKE* being able to own a higher-power hand-held. (Note that I'm not calling it a "pointer", because if I do, it automatically becomes illegal to sell under CDRH rules.)

So if we want to continue to enjoy our higher-power hand-helds, then Wicked needs to come up with a proper laser that meets the CDRH requirements, file the proper paperwork, and then market it as something other than a surveying, pointing, or alignment laser. That's going to be hard for them, but burning applications are allowed, as are lasers for "test equipment". Looks like they went a little far in trying to stretch their list of marketable uses, but we can get them to work on that I think. (OK, I hope!)

The heart of this issue is that while we hate the idea that some other people use high-power hand-helds irresponsibly, we also admit that we like them ourselves. So we're in a catch-22 here. If we acknowledge that high power pointers are illegal to sell here in the US, then how is an otherwise responsible laserist ever going to get his hands on one? (How did you get yours?)

But if there was a LEGAL alternative, one that was slightly larger, had better labels, had a keyswitch, and had an emission indicator, we could buy that model and not be (rightly) accused of being hypocrites.

This is why I'm talking with Steve at Wicked Lasers about his new products. I recognize that there *are* people that want these devices, and I'd rather have them owning one that at least comes with some proper warnings and safety features.

love ya brotha!!!

GROUP HUG!!!! I'm not getting angry, and I hope no one else is either. This is a good debate, and there are lots of good points being made in this thread.

It's quite obvious Wicked are trying to get their names and new products out, but what I have seen of this laser, they seem to be improving.

I agree, Steve. They are getting close. I don't think they are quite there yet, but their new models are leaps and bounds ahead of the pointers that most of us already own, and that's a good start.

Technical review of a "compliant" new blue coming soon, will be very interesting as I just got it today. I told them I would , in fairness, review a compliant laser.

Is this supposed to be a compliant blue lab laser, or a compliant blue hand-held? Because from what I've read from their laser product report, the hand-helds are not quite 100% compliant yet...

Will it meet rated power in a year? Will it meet rated power after half the battery life has passed? How can you justify the price? Who's to say they won't just send you the best one from the batch and send all the customers second rate junk?

Wellm, that goes for any company that you do a review for. Fortunately, as I understand it, Wicked is allowing the reviewers to keep the lasers. Personally, I don't like this idea, as I feel it creates unconscious pressure on the reviewer to give a "good" review. But one benefit of this practice is that the reviewer can update the reveiw if, say, the laser decides to shit the bed after 3 months use!

Testing under unreasonable conditions still warrants false advertisement.<snip> If we don't tolerate that sort of thing for any other industry, why should we tolerate it for Wicked?

I agree with you here. However, the problem is much bigger than just false advertising. The pointer jockey crowd actually EXPECTS these numbers. So it's a public education issue as much as it is a truth-in-advertising issue. I'd like to see Wicked change their website to reflect the physics behind these numbers, but I know that 99% of their customers will just tune it out and scroll to the bottom, because they want to see that number. Omitting any reference to it will only lead customers to other laser sites... It's a real monster.

Why, legal 1mW are reasonable safe all other higher powered pointers are illegal. So why should PL promote discussions or advertisement of a illegal products. <snip> Most people on this forum are laser professionals, let us professionals take the lead and ban Illegal high power laser pointer discussions.

Quite a few professional laserists I know have high powered hand-held lasers. Everyone on the ILDA board of directors has one. (Yes, EVERYONE.) In fact, I'll wager that *most* ILDA members have them. (Did you know that they included a free 75 mw green pointer with the gift bag that all conference attendees received on the ILDA cruise last year?) So how are you going to ask these people to ban something that most of them already own? (Hypocritical much?)

The fact is, lots of responsible people own and enjoy hand-helds along with their larger laser projectors. And those high-power hand-helds are illegal to sell in the US. (But not illegal to own, strangely.) So now, because some inexperienced and uneducated people are doing stupid things with pointers, we are supposed to just ignore the issue? That's not possible, because it affects all of us. No, the solution is a combination of public education and vendor cooperation to improve the product to the point where they are no longer illegal.

Note that doing something illegal with a laser (such as shining it at an aircraft or in a club patron's eyes) will still remain illegal, even if the laser you are using is otherwise 100% CDRH compliant. It just removes the emphasis on the "illegal product" and focuses it where it belongs: on the illegal act itself.

Disclaimer: I fully support strong penalties for the deliberate illumination of an aircraft with a laser.

Adam

[Things]

Disclaimer: I fully support strong penalties for the deliberate illumination of an aircraft with a laser.

Adam

As do I.

One thing to also consider is that green laser pointers may have also helped bring down the price of DPSS green overall, now that the crystals and coatings can be produced quite easily.

Cheers,
Dan

[ElektroFreak]

HAHA! You're right, of course. And yet this fixation on the "distance" that the beam travels is a BIG DEAL among the uneducated pointer-jockey crowd. And the reason it bothers me is because it betrays their utter lack of knowledge when it comes to physics. Yet, because they are dumb enough to ask, many companies (including Wicked) play this "distance" card for all it's worth. I'm not sure who I hold in higher contempt - the people making the claims or the fools who are asking for them in the first place.

So, I'm curious: Given the fact that light travels without attenuation in a vacuum the only limiting factors I see to the distance a light beam can travel is attenuation by the atmosphere and the impurities in it, and divergence. Given ideal conditions and a proper beam expander, what other physical principles come into play when determining the maximum range of a laser? Not the maximum range at which the beam is visible, I'm talking about maximum detectable line of sight propagation. I would think, given the intensity of laser light, that even a low-powered laser beam would propagate very far within the atmosphere and MUCH further in a vacuum such as space. As I said previously, I have heard of and seen reports on relatively long-distance data communication using lower-powered laser systems.

[mccarrot]

I don't think we should ban discussions on laser pointers just because some idiots are misusing them. However, I wouldn't mind if there was some sort of rule against, say, posting pictures of lasers being fired into the sky (like on CPF).

Ok maybe not ban discussions, but do ban posts from companies selling pointers as toys.

Yesterday I was at Mysteryland (with Hugo ) and I counted 5!!! laserpointers in the crowd.

The first picture is from stupid people playing with laserpointers.

The 2nd picture is how we should use lasers!!!

The last picture is a overview of the Q dance stage

[buffo]

Given the fact that light travels without attenuation in a vacuum the only limiting factors I see to the distance a light beam can travel is attenuation by the atmosphere and the impurities in it, and divergence.

Yep. And divergence isn't really a limiting factor, because while it spreads the power out, it doesn't cause any of it to be "lost" in the physical sense. If divergence was the only factor (that is, there was no attenuation at all), the range would be infinite. (See below.)

Given ideal conditions and a proper beam expander, what other physical principles come into play when determining the maximum range of a laser?

In theory, the maximum range of a laser beam in a perfect vacuum is infinite. This assumes you have a large enough detector and/or can wait long enough for a photon to strike it in order to be able to measure the event. (Remembering that as the beam diverges the intensity per unit area decreases to the point where you have a fraction of a photon per cm^^2. Thus you may need to wait a considerable length of time before a photon actually strikes your detector.) Nevertheless, the photons will continue to travel indefinitely, unless absorbed or reflected by intervening matter.

In practice, of course, the range is limited by the medium the beam has to travel through. Even interstellar space is not a perfect vacuum, so you would experience some attenuation of the beam as it interacts with particles of dust, gas, and ice. The earth's atmosphere has even more matter present, so obviously it will attenuate the beam much faster. Still, if the threshold of detection is just a few photons, then the beam of even a 5 mw pointer can travel many miles and still be detected.

But apart from these effects, there is no limit to how far the beam can travel. If it doesn't bump into anything, it will continue to travel forever.

Adam

[ElektroFreak]

Ok maybe not ban discussions, but do ban posts from companies selling pointers as toys.

Yesterday I was at Mysteryland (with Hugo ) and I counted 5!!! laserpointers in the crowd.

The first picture is from stupid people playing with laserpointers.

The 2nd picture is how we should use lasers!!!

The last picture is a overview of the Q dance stage

That is the creepiest stage I have ever seen. That clown would be a constant buzzkill. The lasers are cool though..

I also dislike laser pointers at big events, but a blanket ban on all portable lasers (or talk of them) is overkill. What is needed is enforced legislation prohibiting the public use of such devices, but if your country is anything like here in the US, it's probably not going to happen until there's a real reason for it to happen. There may already be a real reason to you, but perhaps not to those who control such things.

[lasersbee]

Note that doing something illegal with a laser (such as shining it at an aircraft or in a club patron's eyes) will still remain illegal, even if the laser you are using is otherwise 100% CDRH compliant. It just removes the emphasis on the "illegal product" and focuses it where it belongs: on the illegal act itself.

Well said...

there is a lot of talk about illegal lasers... when the real problem is the
uneducated Moron that has it in his hands...

Jerry

[mccarrot]

I disagree, most people are stupid and we (and government) must protect stupid people to misbehave.

The government already did there Job by making high power pointers illegal.

now it's our job to stop promoting high power lasers with stupid reviews about how good it can burn tape and retinas, the less pointers they will (hopefully) sell, the less accidents can happen.

[Things]

I agree with the last statement. Reviews need to be more about the packaging, customer service, power ratings, divergence etc and less about "It can pop balloons really fast so its high power" kinda thing.