Printable View
Surprised to find that 4 previous planetariums that had laser shows here in Michigan have all pulled them and gone with just light shows. Was going to take the kids on break, guess not now. Two were AVI based one was image engineering and the forth was unknown to me.
Is this happening in your state as well?
The planetarium near me took out the star machine not too long ago and said they wouldn't be doing anymore laser shows when I asked. It's understandable, I guess.
The attendance for planetarium laser shows has been dropping for decades. Part of the problem is marketing is so very much harder and more expensive today. Part of the problem is there are so many more things to do in your free time today. Part of the problem is the shows today are half & half. The good half is okay, and the other half isn’t even close. Beams and scans and toons, oh my! If planetariums were in business to make money they would demand quality, they would search for a new marketing model, and they’d have a chance for success. The problem is that planetariums aren’t in business, their definition of quality is a slowly descending spiral of “good enough”, and have a firm belief that the audience doesn’t know the difference. The audience may not know exactly what they’re missing, but if they don’t come back the difference still matters.
When in Orlando my dad mentioned a planetarium lasershow taking place somewhere over there a few years ago (3 years?).
I know it isn't too helpfull as in location as I didn't go there myself (I was traveling further)
Another issue with Planetariums is not the quality, but simply that the number of people who are even interested in stars and planets, which at least in the UK, seems practically zero. I'm presuming that's becoming mirrored in the US. I think Astronomy is seen in almost the same shameful minority interest light as train spotting over here these days. I have a vague memory of once going to a planetarium in a museum in the early 1970's. However, I haven't even heard of one in the UK since then. I don't think however you projected stars, planet or nebula you could attract a viable audience in the UK for anything other than an enthusiasts one off, and that's probably been true for decades.
The market for lasers in the UK is strong. But it lies within hard dance clubs in the majority where a laser is pretty much compulsory. Outside of that, you're probably never likely to ever hear of or even see a laser, especially a planetarium one.
you are forgetting television, weddings, rich families, movies and just businesses looking to advertise their wares or celebrate an achievement or happening within their company. To me this is my biggest market and I'm able to live solely of these jobs without looking at even a single club. But this is the market of pre-programmed shows. The market is indeed very strong.. I've been struggling with time the past few months (not being home for most of the time) as demand was crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by White-Light
What is the "laserist" for then? The market of pre-programmed shows seems like a recipe for obsolescence of the laser performer. One could simply hire a lighting guy to set up and press play until the event is over or worse, one could buy a laser projector on ebay for $200 and a couple of laser shows online rendering the "laserist" useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterpj
Pre-programmed shows are the fast food of the laser industry.
given the amount of time i spend creating pre-programmed shows, i hope that's not true ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by absolom7691
That's like saying DJs make bands obsolete and it isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by absolom7691
This is a good analogy. I appreciate the talented folks that can make pretty light in real-time, but I don't think I've seen anything that could compete with a good pre-programmed beam show (much less graphics/abstract) outside of a few former ILDA award winning examples from someone like Tim Walsh. Live performance is great for clubs and such, but I don't think it can hold many people's interest for long by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYayas
The best live shows (and I'm talking about shows not a single song, montage, or whatever other definition others have) were almost never entirely live. There's just too much to do. Back in 1973 it took 4 people to do Danube. Somebody designed a digital analog hybred circuit board that when combined with a multiplexer/multiplier board, a multiplier summing board, an offset generator board, a fixed rotation board, and 160 bit automation channel could run by itself. The trick is deciding what should be done meta, what should be done live, and how to design both aspects.
we don't even have a science museum at the moment here in miami, no laser shows in over a year
Here's a few points of perspective to consider...
Yes, planetariums are horrible at marketing...along with a variety of other decisions. Even though there are many other things people are interested in doing, if you get the word out properly, you can still pack the house. It is but one aspect of the equation. I disagree with the idea that people aren't interested in space, the people that are will self select, but they have to know there is something there worth seeing. The fact that planetariums offer so much more than just the night sky (like being able to fly around the whole universe) and so many people don't realize this, is excellent proof that they aren't getting the word out.
In addition to contributing to the performance of a show, the Laserist often had the job of liaison between the company and the facility, helping to smooth over relations and keep everyone happy. They had a vested interest in the success of the operation, and were often a point man for marketing. As a Laserist for AVI, I didn't have to work all the deals with the radio station, but I was expected to perform "hand to hand combat" as they called it, which was to go around town distributing flyers for the shows. If you have lasers in your town, tell me the last time any of you saw a flyer anywhere for a show.
As for the shows themselves, in the mid 90's AVI had the ChromaDepth 3D shows, which like other companies used multiple scanner pairs (4 compared to 5 for LFI). Each set had various FX that could be engaged. The 3D was interesting, but 3D is also a marketing gimmick, which I won't get into now. The Laserist had varying amount of control over the shows. Some had full control over the FX and some image manipulation for assigning scale, offset, joystick, rotation and channel assignments for all that fun mirroring and quadrature stuff, while others only had intensity and colormod. The Laserist could make or break a show. I've seen incredible work, and I've seen performances that were absolute turds. As more things became automated, timing and consistency increased. Eventually things switched to Omniscan, the shows were simply "push play" and the Laserist went away. There were still some limited FX. Instead of any rotating lumia or DG and 6 FX per scan set, there were 2 wheels each with 5 options that could be used in dreadful combinations over 1 scanner pair. Sure, it was big and awesome and covered the whole dome, and I loved producing in that format, but wait...it gets worse. Now when you see a show from AVI, it may be on a SkyLase, which as far as I am aware still has no FX. Some were only red and green, but blue is back for the newer ones. And when I see work that I produced for them and they've not even bothered to go back in and take out the slowly rotating dots near the horizon where static lumia once sat, it is just pathetic...or apathetic I suppose.
There also used to be 3 classically trained animators on staff doing minimum 10fps, 3 digitizers putting all those frames into sequence, and 5 producers each working on their own portion of the show, maybe even a couple people who's sole purpose in life was to patch abstracts. So with all the above, it's really hard to compare much of then to now. I'm not going to go on full rant mode of how bad some content is these days, but it can be a lot better. So can my work. I've got a running list of things that bother me, some technical, some aesthetic, and I'm damn tired of seeing rendered dancing people. Some people take things way too literally, like clutching nuts in Pink Floyd's "Mother" so I guess when mister laserist here says to make the lights dance, someone takes that literally too and we get song after song of 3dsMax dancing people.
shots fired lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Laserchuck
anyway setting the bar high is great, but if there's no shows at all nobody really cares
But there is a huge difference in talent and pay. ands can play anything whereas DJs can only play what's in their library and any monkey can DJ a party. "Live" Spinning DJs are still a live performance and that takes a bit of talent.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYayas
But even a canned show with live nuances and alterations is far better than someone pressing play and then going to grab a beer until the next show needs to be queued up.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
A lot of things changed at the same time, the marketing models changed but the marketing didn't adapt. The shows, technology, staffing, responsibilities, style and complexity, music choices and more. Yes, we can argue all day long about who made the best buggy whips back in the day. But there are people actively employed in the field, selling equipment and shows. There are planetariums running these shows. If the audience isn't satisfied, they won't come back or bring their friends. In fact, the online culture of our times seems to thrive on people bitching more than actually contributing. So the likely hood of a cynical comment between friends is even greater than promoting something as cool. So if the show isn't worth seeing again or bringing friends, the attendance goes down and eventually not worth the facility having. Marketing is hard, but when they (typically) don't do any, it's even harder to keep an operation going.Quote:
Originally Posted by flecom
Another challenge is something I experienced close to (and I can't believe I'm saying this) 20 years ago in Kansas City. I was there to do some work in their planetarium, we were getting comp tickets to some Elvira 3D show. A nearby couple was considering what to see and I heard the young woman say something about not wanting to see the laser show.
So I went up to them and said "Hey, you guys know anything about the laser shows? Are they cool or what?"
Her: "I heard they weren't any good."
Me: "Oh have you seen them here?"
Her: "No, a friend of mine saw one in Branson and said it sucked."
My first thought was "my ILDA award winning shows were being judged based on what someone's friend saw in Branson, that bastion of entertainment." I did fess up to who I was / why I was there and suggest they give the laser shows a try for themselves. If I would have had passes I would have given them out. I don't know if they ever did.
When someone does a bad laser show it can affect the whole of the industry. For some reason people can make the distinction with film, and not pass on seeing Avatar because they didn't like Leonard Part 6. Don't know that one? Maybe I should pick a newer movie or even within the same theme, deciding to not watch the original Star Wars because their friend saw Flight of the Navigator and thought it sucked. Damn, still an old movie. Well, you get the idea. If not, go watch those movies and decide for yourself...at some point I enjoyed them.
If you want to keep with the pole vault metaphor, I'm really not even talking about setting the bar high. There is a whole spectrum of failures along the way that prevent even making it over the lower rungs. Tripping on the untied laces, not spiking the pole properly or even holding on to it. The availability and proliferation of low cost/quality technology allowing people to do shows where I've actually seen them on here in years past asking for help digitizing a logo because they had a gig that weekend...It made me scream because they were actually taking someone's money and reducing the overall quality of the medium. Bitching about the cost of $40 diode drivers, accepting the anything but linear blanking that these systems now offer, and the reuse of frames from obvious other sources. (are people still passing around the frames from The Traveler?)
And truly, for the hobbyists...I'm not here to rain on someone's interests. In a professional capacity, there is a lot to be learned from the mistakes and successes of the past. There were those who have done such bad jobs that the client swore off ever having lasers again. It isn't about just getting the technology or the art or the marketing right, it's all of it. You might be great at rebuilding that projector every time a new diode comes out. Personally, I just want it to work, I don't want to have to fight it to get it there. Several years ago at LDI I was absolutely thrilled to see the first 20W projectors at big booths with lots of photons. Finally real power and able to fit in the overhead compartment. I wanted to see what glorious imagery was possible, so what did I see? No joke, that old 3-frame hand shake was in the loop of crap playing. And yes, I heard comments about the art from non laser attendees who were used to having better quality animations in video. They looked at the poor attempts to do it in laser and shake their heads, probably thinking that was all it could do. It really doesn't take much to hire an animator. They are out there and probably needs some work.
So yes, there are some higher rungs and great possibilities, but there is a lot to get right just to make it to the lower bar at the first rung. The world will not lower its expectations to ensure your success.
Oh don't get me wrong - I think the advantages of having a talented performer are huge if the system really supports live interaction, but most shows other than Laserium that I saw down through the years that claimed to be live either weren't or the "laserist" couldn't be bothered. A live show can go from crap to wonderful with a little or a lot of effort. A prerecorded crap show will be crap forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by absolom7691
Exactly. If your canned show is not holding your audience, there is very that can be done. I would also think most laserists would find it a blast to perform a live show and if something went awry, not to fear, the autopilot will bring the stick back to center. It would have to be more fun than just clicking start.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
Most of the shows I am working on in Beyond are canned/timeline based but a good portion of those pre-assembled abstract "frames" have live attributes applied and mapped to my midi console. FM, AM, and color mods can be manipulated live and change the image drastically while still within the harmonic bliss zone. Most of the modern canned abstract shows look decent enough but they would be way more unique if the laserist could make live changes. Outside of Laserium, I think if have only seen Blue Fang do live changes with his Maxwell synth software and he was just screwing around to show proof of concept. It looked great though.
while i do mostly canned abstract shows, my shows at least have randomized elements so there is some variation over repeated viewing. having some hooks for operator control during the shows sounds like fun and is something i'd like to explore in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by absolom7691
What kind of live nuances are you talking about and why can't you add them as part of the canned show?Quote:
Originally Posted by absolom7691
Don't get me wrong, of the canned abstract shows I have seen on PL, yours are best.Quote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
It is a lot of fun and knowing your work, I am sure your stuff would fantastic.Quote:
having some hooks for operator control during the shows sounds like fun and is something i'd like to explore in the future.
If selling shows to other laser guys, you can only sell canned shows but if you put together a great canned show with live elements, it will be different each time. It can change based on mood, the audience input and even the imperfections in us that change the way we repeat things. This is why people love live music. We listen to the same tracks over and over because we love them but when we see them performed live, it is a whole different experience. Watching David Gilmour's ear-to-ear grin during the Pulse concert was priceless. Seeing them live was truly an amazing experience. Who would go to see a band and watch them pop a cd in and press play? That sounds like fun for no one.
People like live music because they get to see the performers and interact with them. No one wants to interact or see the guys twiddling the knobs at a laser show.
Actually there are any number of reasons people like live music. There's a magnificent old Fox Theater here in St. Louis and your reason for going to see live music there is particularly appropriate - since the acoustics are awful. Around the block is The Shelden where you go to listen to the music. The advantage to live is you get to experience it differently. There can be an awesome energy coming from the rest of the audience. If you're the right kind of performer you can learn things from the audience too.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYayas
I'm an ol' fart, from near the beginning days of planetarium laser shows and hope I'm not intruding into this conversation.
I started out in 1974, in my mid-20's taking astronomy at a local junior college. This 40' planetarium had a very creative director/astronomy professor, along with a very talented photographer special effects tech. I joined the team the following year having been a recording engineer, theater projectionist and electronics tech. To me what made the planetarium experience great was directly proportional to the talent that "performed" visual and aural "dark theater" effects while blending in the 3D virtual astronomical visuals. The director was aware of Laserium long before I was since it was a phenomena spreading throughout more and more planetariums by the mid-70's. The planetarium had just gotten a .5mW HeNeIt and the directory asked me to figure out how Ivan Dryer did those effects. That's how I got my start.
My key point is this. Dark theater is a technical art form that when drawing from an eclectic range of dark theater effects (including judicious uses of the planetarium star ball and other optical effects) can produce a transcending experience. Lasers in and of themselves are very cool indeed, and today have tremendously more versatility. I spent years developing computer controlled, multi-channel, programmable DAC boards, but my personal experience seemed to support a greater value was delivered to the audience when a core scripted show left room for real-time, manual augmentation based on audience feedback.
In '77, I went to Europe, London was our first stop. There was a laser show all the rage playing at the Metropole Cinema called "Lovelight", it premiered at the Hayden Planetarium in Boston. The creator was I believe Jean Monagu (general scanning) and a very talented group of others. It was an early computer generated, scripted animation using multi-colored, closed-loop scanners, multi-track FM modulation tape, a very grand production. The visuals were very impressive but the show "experience" left me underwhelmed and disappointed (all while wondering "how the hell did they do that"). I still have the London magazine "What's On In London" with laser show's visuals on the front cover and the lead story somewhere. (I found the London mag since I first posted and re-edited this.)
Live music shows with or without lasers, in effect bear out this blend of quasi-scripted/spontaneous performance formula for making it such a higher level audience experience, to me at least.
Cheers
we actually had great attendance, problem is museum didn't really like it and the people in charge are so grossly incompetent it's kind of mind blowing... now due to mismanagement they closed the old museum over a year ago and the new one isn't ready yetQuote:
Originally Posted by Laserchuck
as far as music choices, we often made shows for music that was popular but interest would die off quickly... the floyd/beatles/etc shows usually sold out...
we did aggressively promote on facebook/craigslist/yelp/meetup/etc, basically anything that could be done for free
How often did you run these? Just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by flecom
Incompetence in these types of facilities abounds. The definition of success varies so greatly across the organizations, and the great divide between administration and front line is often huge, so it's really a surprise when something goes right. The phrase "It's hard to tell from this distance if the board is sitting on their hands or frantically trying to cover their assess." comes up quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by flecom
The band's with with a huge following have have a fan base and there is often a history of knowing there are laser shows for them. Any time I mention laser shows to someone new, they often say "oh like Pink Floyd?" One planetarium ran an ad that was easily misinterpreted to think that U2 would be playing there. The people came to droves. And we're subsequently disappointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by flecom
Quite likely, even if you bring in more money, they wouldn't let you have access to it to use it for more advertising...to bring in even more money. I try to tell these people that Non-profit is Isa tax status, not a mandate.Quote:
Originally Posted by flecom
they ran first friday of the month usually, sometimes we would do friday and sautrday (like end of the year during winter break)Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYayas
last schedule is actually still up
http://bird.miamisci.org/www/planeta...aser_shows.php