Commercial NON Varienced laser shows

[mixedgas]

If the rules were enforced, he would NOT have been shipped the new laser hardware unless he signed paperwork as a OEM and stated he was building his own finished products.

THE RULES ARE NOT ENFORCED.

steve

[Corporall Clegg]

I was told he is a dealer for some china based company hence the ablity to make a profit off of selling club systems and for that matter even aforrding a 40 watt rgb build

[Adrian Cavaleru]

@clegg, where did you got that picture from your profile?
it is very nice...

[laseralex]

most of these shows if not all except for the upcoming one have been "underground" such as raves that are not for general public viewing

Being an "underground" show doesn't eliminate the variance requirement. If you are showing the laser to ANYONE who isn't an employee, it's a public performance. As a manufacturer I never do "real" shows myself but I need both manufacturing and performance variances because non-employees see the shows whenever I have a potential customer come to see a laser in my lab.

I think the only way this person is and can run these shows is because he is non varienced being aquiring them for these kind of outputs might be impossible you would know more about that than I

There's absolutely NO problem getting a variance for a high-power projector if you are being safe; the system we installed in Dayton, Ohio includes a 75W RGB projector on a waterscreen and 150 W of YAGs for beams, and we got the variance for our client on the first submission. It we can get a variance on 225 Watts, he can get a variance on 40 without a problem.

i feel that when getting into 4 watt or most especialy 40 watt lasers that there is a safety issue that needs to be adressed be the very high power lof these units and as far as i know they are all hand bulit (i don't know if they are up to saftey standrds of a varienced laser or not or if they even have infrared filters (as most cheap lasers do not)

The fact that he is willing to operate without a variance is a strong indication that he doesn't know (and perhaps doesn't care) much about safety. As you say, it's impossible to know if he has the requisite emergency stops, beam blocks, interlocks, clearance above the audience, alignment procedures, etc. which are needed to make a safe show. The variance process is basically a matter of documenting these features and submitting them to the CDRH -- if it's compliant then he'll have no trouble getting a variance, and if it's not compliant then he shouldn't be doing the show because he is endangering people.

Steve is right that there is very little enforcement of laser regulations, but the same thing can be said about speeding: people drive 10 over the limit all the time with no consequences, but they're likely to get nailed if they do 180mph through traffic. If this guy was running 50mW shows it wouldn't be as big a deal, but he's running multi-watt systems which have the strong possibility of causing instant and catastrophic eye damage if not properly controlled.

anyway im not here trying to be a snitch or point fingers

I understand not wanting to be a "snitch" which is why I suggested that you first let him know of the variance requirement and offering to point him the right direction. But if he refuses to comply, I see no problem with reporting him -- just the same as I'd expect you to report a driver ripping a Ferrari up and down a family neighborhood at five times the speed limit. Acting to protect the public (including yourself and your friends) is not snitching, it's part of being a responsible adult.

The CDRH doesn't' generally arrest or fine people, they just make them correct the situation, so you don't have to feel responsible for sending someone to jail. They'll most likely just make him file for variances on all his installs and projectors, which will require to him install any missing safety gear like beam blocks and emergency stops.

If you tell him to get varianced or get reported, I'm sure you'll feel better knowing he's then operating safely; if you do nothing, how will you feel when he blinds someone?

[flecom]

i have always liked the idea of a license, the whole variance thing to me always seemed silly, and stupid at best, more paperwork for nothing... i think if you have a competent operator and follow the rules you should be ok...

example, ham radio, you have a license to talk on the radio, radios don't have to meet any real standards (within reason) and you can even let someone else who is not licensed talk on your radio legally if you are "in control of the station"

[laseralex]

i have always liked the idea of a license, the whole variance thing to me always seemed silly, and stupid at best, more paperwork for nothing... i think if you have a competent operator and follow the rules you should be ok...

example, ham radio, you have a license to talk on the radio, radios don't have to meet any real standards (within reason) and you can even let someone else who is not licensed talk on your radio legally if you are "in control of the station"

What do you see as the difference between a variance and a license? It's pretty much the same thing!

[Phredy1]

Another way to look at this is "if" something happens at an unvarianced show, you would likely see the FDA looking at everything anyone does - with a magnifying glass.

I work in mining. MSHA (Mining Safety Health Administration) is the government agency that has the rules we must follow. Any time there is a mining accident, MSHA is out to inspect us within weeks. No matter how much any mining operation tries to follow the rules and regulations, any MSHA inspector can find something wrong if they look hard enough. If a MSHA inspector shows up, we know there is a citation and fine coming.

I would guess that the FDA would operate somewhat similar. If someones underground show goes wrong and people are hurt, you could probably expect the FDA to be inspecting anything and everything.

Personally I think the FDA rules and regs are there for good reasons, but the last thing I want is the FDA looking over my shoulder with pen and paper in hand.

-Gene

[mixedgas]

I would guess that the FDA would operate somewhat similar. If someones underground show goes wrong and people are hurt, you could probably expect the FDA to be inspecting anything and everything.

Personally I think the FDA rules and regs are there for good reasons, but the last thing I want is the FDA looking over my shoulder with pen and paper in hand.

END QUOTE:

The problem is, FDA inspects what they know about. Its hard to hide a mine.
Its easy to hide lasers. And even if people screw up, they are looking at a warning letter, not a fine, usually.

Ask old timers what had to happen in vegas once warning letters were ignored. Took a cabinet level secretary to get involved. (outdoor lasers are still banned there)

I'm in favor of a works anywhere license, with levels 0-300 mW and a then 300 mW and up. Outdoors requires experience indoors first. Governemnt tests are almost always 70% score passes multiple guess and the test pool questions are ALWAYS published some place. It works for ham radio, boating, ships masters (prequires practical time aboard ship), commercial radio techs,carpenters, electricians. etc. The problem with a vari is its site specific unless your set up for touring. My gotcha is, you must have license to purchase gear...

And you can do what they did with the commercial radio license, it costs 100$ to take the test from a private entity. And I dont wan't to hear 100$ is too much, that is peanuts compared to a pilots license or a teachers license or nurses license on a yearly basis.

Heard that many complaints against hams lately??? The test, although easy, and made easier with the removal of morse code as a requirement, keeps a lot of the wantabees out. And even though its not required any more, try to buy a kilowatt amp without showing someone your license......

Try to get a job working on commericial, marine or aviation radio without the ticket. Its possible and legal, but not likely.

Steve

[flecom]

What do you see as the difference between a variance and a license? It's pretty much the same thing!

totally different, a variance is for a projector/venue/event, a license is for the operator(s)

[VJ AIWAZ]

All i have to say is NY state

i would love to pay only $100 for class
as it is in ny you need to take a $1000 class offered like once a year by norman balled or have a degree in lasers

and thats the easy part then you need to take a test on biology, math and physics then pay $500 a year per laser that you own