Some FREE iShow Frames

[masterpj]

well I am fairly certain that most of the shows included with pangolin were not specifically made for pangolin (theres some obvious exceptions like Linea etc) they were just shared for pangolin users... but most of the notes indicate they should not be shared with non-pangolin users... you would have to contact the creators if you wanted to share them in another format

I agree the best thing is to contact the author of the show if possible.
Else just don't share things just like that...
Then Im happy
*doesn't want to see things being stolen*

[buffo]

ya well, Bill might be a lot of things but I don't believe he is a lawyer...

Probably not, but he's certainly dealt with enough of them over the years. I'm fairly confident when he speaks about legal issues, he is likely quoting chapter and verse from his lawyer(s). Besides, everything he's said above is echoed in ILDA's official statement concerning copyright infringement of ILDA artwork. I don't see where he's over-reaching. What part of his post do you disagree with?

a lot of the frames pangolin comes with are so generic that it could be reasoned that someone else could make a very similar drawing in another application

It is trivial to compare two frame files to see if they are identical. Given that we're talking about 16-bit values here, the odds of someone drawing *exactly* the same frame (even if we're only talking about, say 500 points) are next to impossible.

I also disagree that the frames are generic. Many of them are stylized, and a lot of them are animated as well. That would make it quite difficult to copy precisely by hand. (Could you draw the infamous "mermaid" sequence by hand? And even if you could, do you really think the coordinates of each point in your version would match any of the ones from the original animation?)

also some of the frames pangolin comes with are copyrighted logos that I kind of doubt they have the owners permission to distribute to begin with

You're forgetting about fair use. There's nothing wrong with me using a copy of the Ford logo, so long as I'm not using it to either unfairly compete with Ford or to fraudulently represent myself as an agent of Ford Motor Company.

well I am fairly certain that most of the shows included with pangolin were not specifically made for pangolin (theres some obvious exceptions like Linea etc) they were just shared for pangolin users...

What do you mean, "Made specifically for Pangolin?" Most of the shows that are included with Pangolin were actually created by professional companies for use in their own businesses, but most of those companies were already using Pangolin hardware to create the shows. Pangolin had to pay those companies to get the rights to include them with the LD-2000 package.

Sometimes they've even gotten exclusive rights, which means you won't see that show on any other controller. But exclusive rights were not always available, which is why you see that Robert Miles "Children" show with just about every controller ever made...

but most of the notes indicate they should not be shared with non-pangolin users... you would have to contact the creators if you wanted to share them in another format

The ones that tell you not to share with non-pangolin users should be the ones that have copyrighted Pangolin frames in them. (That is, frames that Pangolin either made themselves, or paid someone for the rights to distribute them with the LD-2000) And yeah, if they were frames that Pangolin licensed from a 3rd party, you could try to contact the 3rd party to get the frames directly from them.

But even if you had permission from the 3rd party to share the frames, you still can't share the copies that comes with the LD-2000, because they are saved in the .lds format. (encrypted)

Adam

[masterpj]

Thanks buffo you couldn't have said it better.
And yes I will keep on the lookout for this kind of "sharing" *included it in quotes because I call it stealing.

Pangolin asked me to make frames for them, I warn you in advance, If I see those frames appearing all of a sudden as a non pangolin version without me releasing it for sharing.
Even though I like the community and off course will share some nice things I will report when I see this kind of way of sharing
You have been warned.
I don't mind sharing myself, but I wont be sharing everything with none pangolin users.
They invest and pay for a reason and not for fun. If I would be that person who made those frames I would be mad...
(the frames made for sharing will likely be made specifically for sharing and will be made at random times.
Those special made scene's / frames being free will not influence the quality, even though made for free use* also those frames will be converted with illustrate for example and not with LasershowCreator-max)


Even if those are not my frames, I will report it too.
I don't like betraying......no wait this is not even betraying this is just prevention of piracy

This also covers the bit of the so called expensive thingy sometimes floating around with pangolin.
It's not expensive... It looks expensive, it's high priced but worth its money It cost alot because they invest alot and also give alot too.

Why am I so protective? well ever since I started on the PL forums I was one of those persons whining about it being expensive blabla, and then I got proper explanation and I began to realise it's not.
It was since then my admiration for that company started increasing, I seriously like that company now and it's fair to show some respect to a company which actually shares more then most people realise.

P.S I don't want you to have any lawsuit. But Im warning you, please learn from it.

I hope this is the end of the discussion.

I wish you all a merry christmass.
I hope I can finish something very promising for everyone and that will be shared for FREE.

[flecom]

What part of his post do you disagree with?

don't put words in my mouth, at no point did I say I disagree with him, I just think he isnt god and his word should not be taken as such

It is trivial to compare two frame files to see if they are identical. Given that we're talking about 16-bit values here, the odds of someone drawing *exactly* the same frame (even if we're only talking about, say 500 points) are next to impossible.

so change the white from 255:255:255 to 254:254:254 done!

Could you draw the infamous "mermaid" sequence by hand? And even if you could, do you really think the coordinates of each point in your version would match any of the ones from the original animation?

think anyone that copies that animation should be shot, if I see it again I am going to scream lol

You're forgetting about fair use. There's nothing wrong with me using a copy of the Ford logo, so long as I'm not using it to either unfairly compete with Ford or to fraudulently represent myself as an agent of Ford Motor Company.

I am sure their lawyers will disagree (even if you are right, which I am fairly certain you are) you still have to note somewhere that the ford logo is a trademark of ford motor company to cover your ass... any time you see an article with a company logo you will see a * text at the bottom

What do you mean, "Made specifically for Pangolin?" Most of the shows that are included with Pangolin were actually created by professional companies for use in their own businesses, but most of those companies were already using Pangolin hardware to create the shows. Pangolin had to pay those companies to get the rights to include them with the LD-2000 package.

Linea was made for pangolin, the evolution show or whatever its called was made for pangolin etc... they were obviously technical demos

[masterpj]

Originally Posted by buffo

You're forgetting about fair use. There's nothing wrong with me using a copy of the Ford logo, so long as I'm not using it to either unfairly compete with Ford or to fraudulently represent myself as an agent of Ford Motor Company.

Originally Posted by flecom
I am sure their lawyers will disagree (even if you are right, which I am fairly certain you are) you still have to note somewhere that the ford logo is a trademark of ford motor company to cover your ass... any time you see an article with a company logo you will see a * text at the bottom

Here comes the answer to that argument.
Why?
well I was eating this morning with my dad, my dad is the boss of the biggest lawyer company of this region.
He said even though there are exceptions with it being an other country
The rule is like this:

You ARE able to use a logo like pangolin does.
the things you CAN'T do are:
- State that you work for that company
- harm reputation of the company
- missuse it to promote your simmilar product which will benefit you but the opposite for them.

Buffo's statement of fair use was completely right

Now I didn't tell my dad about the logo saying it being a trademark, but it's likely that the same rules apply

Off course It's recommended to ask the company who owns the logo if you can use it, they likely won't complain if you tell them your using it for laser display.
Likely pangolin did this.

objections?

[buffo]

don't put words in my mouth, at no point did I say I disagree with him, I just think he isnt god and his word should not be taken as such

I'm not putting words into your mouth. Bill made a very clear statement about copyright law. Your response was "I don't think Bill is a lawyer..." Now tell me - what could you possibly mean by that, other than to implies that you doubt what he said is actually correct?

Seriously - tell me how your question could be interpreted ANY other way than to cast doubt on the validity of what he said.

I simply asked you to expand upon that implication. And then you try to weasel out of it by saying that you never explicitly said you disagree with him. (No, you just attacked his credibility for no reason, right?) Come on... We're not fools here!

Then you say you don't think he's god. (Duh... I think we can all agree that Bill Benner is not the almighty...) And you also said his word should not be taken as such. Well, now you're putting words into MY mouth. Because I never said he was god, or even a lawyer. But I *did* say that his words matched up very closely with other recognized experts in the field, and I also commented about his previous dealings with legal council.

In that light, I'd say that buys Bill a lot of credibility. If you wish to disagree, please post evidence to support your allegations that we should not take Bill's comments at face value, or otherwise clarify your objections to his original statements. Because the simple fact that "he's not a lawyer" is irrelevant to his statements concerning copyright law.

you still have to note somewhere that the ford logo is a trademark of ford motor company to cover your ass.

People may choose to do so to cover their ass from a frivolous and unfounded lawsuit, but even if they don't, there's no way Ford will win in this contest. So long as you are not defrauding or libeling Ford, they have no case. (This may not prevent their legal team from sending you a nasty-gram, but as we've already seen with Casio, those letters don't mean anything without a solid legal backing behind them. Right Dream Beamz? )

Linea was made for pangolin, the evolution show or whatever its called was made for pangolin etc... they were obviously technical demos

Yes - and there are a couple others that were made by Pangolin as technical demos. But the bulk of the shows are not like this. Elevation? Professionally made and purchased by Pangolin. Rhythm is a Dancer? Professionally made (and award winning!) show that was purchased by Pangolin. All of the Mike / Dunn Pink Floyd shows? Same thing. In fact, just about every show that comes with Pangolin (apart from the few you mentioned and one or two others that I can think of that they got for free), were created by professional laser show companies and then were purchased outright by Pangolin or licensed to them.

Adam

[JohnYayas]

Typically, some sort of licensing is required in order to sell a product with another company's trademark in/on it. For example, look at this website, specifically the very bottom: http://www.vwtrademarks.com/vw.aspx?file=vwguide.htm . Including a VW laser frame in a laser application would require a merchandise license. I am sure that it varies from company to company. Some may not care but the ones that do care certainly have the right to object to use of their logo without a license. Even colleges require it. I have known a few people shut down by a certain large unversity for selling t-shirts that had their logo without their permission.

Whether or not Pangolin has persmission to distribute any logo frames is not something I know nor care about. But, for certain, they do not automatically have the right to distribute them just because they want to.

[buffo]

If Pangolin was just selling ILDA files (or even just selling laser shows) that consisted of nothing more than corporate logos, then I would agree with you, provided that those frames (or shows) somehow competed with similar offerings from those corporations. But Pangolin isn't doing that.

They are simply showing examples of corporate logos as a paltry sample of the more than 300,000 ILDA frames that they include with every purchase of a laser controller and software package. In short, it's ART, and it in no way competes with those parent companies. This falls under fair use, and is quite different from the other two examples you mentioned.

The colleges who sued bootleg T-shirt manufacturers, for example, were doing so because they (the colleges) also sold their own T-shirts. Thus, those other companies were in direct competition with the college booster club (or whatever business unit sold the college-branded memorabilia), and that's where they screwed up.

As for the VW example, their website explicitly lists the objections they have. Read them. They all deal with using the VW name or logo in promotion of your own business. So if I were to form a laser show company called: "VW Laser Shows", then they'd certainly go after me, and I'd almost certainly loose in court.

But using their logo in a work of art (which is what a laser show is) is *absolutely* covered under the fair use doctrine. I could even go one step further and use it in a satirical manner if I wanted. (Though you have to be careful to distinguish between satire and outright libel, in that case.)

You'll notice that there is nothing on the VW website that says "you can't reproduce our image or print the name "Volkswagen". It's only in conjunction with it being used "as the name of, or as the means of identifying, any business, Internet domain name, website, service or product not having its source in VWAG, one of its subsidiaries, or one of its licensees" that they have a problem with.

As it should be.

Adam

[flecom]

well I am fairly certain that most of the shows included with pangolin were not specifically made for pangolin (theres some obvious exceptions like Linea etc) they were just shared for pangolin users... but most of the notes indicate they should not be shared with non-pangolin users... you would have to contact the creators if you wanted to share them in another format

Yes - and there are a couple others that were made by Pangolin as technical demos. But the bulk of the shows are not like this. Elevation? Professionally made and purchased by Pangolin. Rhythm is a Dancer? Professionally made (and award winning!) show that was purchased by Pangolin. All of the Mike / Dunn Pink Floyd shows? Same thing. In fact, just about every show that comes with Pangolin (apart from the few you mentioned and one or two others that I can think of that they got for free), were created by professional laser show companies and then were purchased outright by Pangolin or licensed to them.

Adam

isnt that EXACTLY what I said???

dont really have anything to add to the rest of your post... personally I deleted the frames and shows directory on my main pangolin show making box after reading all this hooplah... if I intend to make shows for $$$ I don't want to feel the wrath of bill after accidentally including a frame lol

its a shame that they give you all that content and then restrict its use so heavily... its like if all of the clipart that came with office could only be printed and given to other licensed users of microsoft office...

[JohnYayas]

The VW example is pretty clear. I quote:

"If you wish to manufacture products that include our trademarks, you must complete a merchandise license application and submit it directly to VWAG. To request a merchandise license application, please send your e-mail request to VWTrademarks@vw.com."

Pangolin is not provididing logo frames as examples. They are providing them as content that adds value to their software. Pangolin is notorious for saying: "When you buy our software you also get tons of shows and ILDA files that you can use to make shows". I would have a hard time agreeing with you that their use of them falls under "fair use". I have seen VW come down on a lot of websites and businesses based on some very petty uses of their trademarks. I'm not even talking VW businesses. I am just talking about personal websites that had people showing off their VW restoration project.