We have it on ours. Will collect it on Wednesday.Originally Posted by mixedgas
Senior Member
We have it on ours. Will collect it on Wednesday.
- There is no such word as "can't" -
- 60% of the time it works every time -
Senior Member
@ Mr. Benner
First of all I don’t see how you read bias out of my comments.
Second of all, I’m not elevating anything above norty, absolom or anyone else for that matter. I also don’t see how you read this out of my post. I guess to you, disagreeing with something means demonstrating superiority. Being on the subject of misinterpreting or distorting conversation, you apparently have some of the characteristics of a politician, you have the gift of twisting and turning things to suit your needs, which has been demonstrated more then once just in this thread. You yourself point me to a website with information on scanners, so I go to that website and post a quote here, which by the way (to an extent) makes a lot of sense to me, only for you to claim the information is outdated. Well is it only outdated or is it untrue? This raises the question of, why the hell are you pointing me to a thread with outdated or untrue information, which by the way carry’s your name on it.
And here I quote information off of your website:
Q: Does the ILDA Test Pattern accurately characterize scanner performance?
A: It has done so in the past. But one problem with the circle-in-the-square test is that it measures scanner performance at only one point in the scanner’s performance regime. This is like measuring a loudspeaker’s performance by the accuracy at which it plays middle C. While helpful, it does not tell the whole story.
Measuring at one point has worked so far because in the past the scanner performance curve has been similar at 12K, 30K and even 36K. If performance is known at one point, it can be inferred at most other points.
But new scanners or scanner amp tunings may come out which change the shape of the curve. For this reason, it may be necessary for the laser display industry to develop a consensus on new test patterns that give additional data.
So what will your politically distorted answer be to this information? Is this also untrue or outdated, if so, why the hell are you misleading the public with incorrect information?
So both texts that I have quoted can unmistakably be interpreted when applying the simple rules of the English language.
Now to put back into context my original statement in regards to the ILDA test pattern:
“I disagree that the ILDA test pattern can be used as a signal source to optimally tune any and every scanner to optimal performance, that’s just simplifying it a little too much”. To optimally tune such a system you must first assess the specific response characteristics of the plant to be tuned and if possible without regulation, meaning it’s open loop performance characteristics to determine its natural bandwidth, linearity, resonance freq. ect. This can easily be done with simple waveforms like sine, saw and square. When these variables are known then the best possible set of signals can be assessed for tuning the scanners to the best possible broadband linear response. I don’t want to elaborate on this any further because it can and probably will lead to endless discussions which I simply don’t have time for.
As to my credentials: I’m not as comfortable waving these around as you are, I am more down to earth and prefer being eye to eye with my peers. I don’t feel the need to float into a room full of people to recite my copy and paste text of “Hi, I’m Bill Benner, I have X number of patents and bla bla bla and bla bla bla”. I don’t know how often I have read and heard this introduction, but the first time I heard it I got this vivid vision of an Eagle scout popping out from behind a bush in his freshly ironed and pleated scout uniform, with countless merit badges all the way down to his socks starting to recite this text. Wow.. do you have an inferiority complex that you have to constantly hang out your achievements in order to harvest confirmation from your peers that you are worth something? But since you are digging I’ll give you the quick rundown. I’m 53 years old and currently head a part of our R&D department at Terex-Demag here in Germany with 8 engineers. My team develops software and hardware test platforms for component and substructure testing of our all-terrain telescopic cranes up to 1000 tons class. This field requires a little more knowledge than what’s required for a little bit of laser projector building. The funny thing is, I personally don’t even have an engineer’s degree but I came to this company and literally fell up the ladder with my natural talent for being analytical and raising uncomfortable questions and having a broadband knowledge over a wide palette of technological fields. To make a long story short I’m very respected amongst our entire R&D department which consists of more than 50 engineers of which a third have doctor’s degrees and are down to earth enough and are more than willing to listen to what I have to say on an eye to eye level. To take it a level further, I’ve been active in electronics since the age of nine where I wished myself a soldering iron for Christmas. At the age of 11 I built my first color organ, at the age of 12 I repaired my first Fisher tube amp. While other kids were chasing little girls around the block I was reading everything I could about tube amps, speaker chassis construction, digital and analog circuitry and so on. At the age of 13 I built my own oscilloscope out of a kit and started repairing and modifying electric guitar tube amps, electric guitars and so on. I was never very ambitious to getting rich famous or anything down that line I just did what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. Bla bla bla.. At some point I ended up coming to Germany and decided to go to tech school to get something on paper. Amongst others, I had to take an IQ test or a so called Mensa-test to qualify for admission which I absolved with 136 on a bad day. The board acted like it was something special as they said I can choose the field that I want to get into. In Tech school, also not very ambitious and bored, I partied and played in several bands whilst going thru the motions. Without breaking a sweat and finishing 1.5 hours before everybody else, I completed my final exam with an average of 97%. I got a job at the Hawk missile calibration lab here in Germany maintaining the environmental control system for the lab which I did for three years until once again my boredom caught up with me. Bla bla bla……. Who gives a shit! Bottom line, I'm a freak, nerd or what ever you want to call it.
Enough of this shit, to me it’s clear that you have some kind of vendetta going against EyeMagic, one would have to be blind to oversee that. I don’t believe that all this is because of exaggerated advertisement and if it is you’ve got your work cut out for you because the majority of advertisement contains exaggeration, including yours. If uncovering exaggerations in advertisement could be turned into a paying job, there would be no unemployment!
To all who may have seen some of my comments as offensive or personal, it was certainly not meant that way and I apologize but this has turned into an all against one thread with Mr. Benner as the instigator. So, if spec wants to toss my ass out of PL then that’s ok too but at least I spoke my mind and I wish everyone a nice ray!
Cheers!
PS. Mr. Benner, don’t bother replying to this post because I’m finished with this subject.
Senior Member
Was it the Heathkit oscope? My dad was an electronics technician so he built one of those, along with the color TV, and digital multimeter as part of his continuing education training through his employer. Actually, all of the technicians did so it was funny to go over to his coworkers houses and they all had the exact same Heathkit color TV and they all knew how to fix them when they went out of whack (which seemed like a normal occcurance).
Member
As a junior member 56 years of age and a nuclear engineer of 35years, I find reading this a bit painful, after all, we all have our own views and ways of doing things but not allow others to have them is very closed. If no one challenges the status quo or pushes the boundaries then nothing changes. What was a standard for 15 years ago may not be up to the job over the next 10 years, be open to change. Look how far lasers and systems have come in the last 10years, what will the next 10years maybe a blue laser that is 5 watts no bigger than a cigarette box very low cost. Dam that’s happened already 2 years ago!
Senior Member
I'm sorry but many of us see bias in your comments not just Mr. Benner.
That's because you are defending the indefensible. Whereas I've said many times, I know nothing of the performance of EMS scanners as a brand, what I can comment on is the ILDA patterns you posted for your scanners and as Bill pointed out, they have their faults which are rather obvious. Maybe slowed down the results would be better.
However, rather than accept that your particular pair of scanners (note here I'm keeping this specific to your pair), aren't performing to the ILDA standard perfectly at 60K, you then turn and attack the ILDA standard as at fault, as though your scanners are somehow so special that they should have their own special test standard and other scanners are not as good because they do meet the ILDA standard perfectly and not your own test standard which, by the way, hasn't apparently been invented yet.
Sounding rather twisted?
This could almost be read like the notes from a psychiatrists couch rather than a conversation between intelligent people!
Well many people have put unbiased input on the ILDA patterns you displayed without taking sides in the wider EMS debate and yet you ignore everyone despite clear evidence that your scanners aren't performing well with the ILDA pattern at 60k and 10 degree angle. I refer you to the earlier analysis of the pattern.
Speaking of twisted I think you'll find he said that the information had not been updated for a number of years. That's difference to outdated or untrue in so far as the ILDA test patterns are still the gold standard for testing scanners as of this moment in time and so whilst the information hasn't been updated, its certainly not all outdated, at least in so far as the ILDA patterns still have credence and the descriptions of how those patterns should look is still accurate.
So are you now claiming that your scanners have changed the shape of the curve so its the ILDA test pattern at fault? Because Cambridge 6215's don't appear to have problems drawing circles at 60K.
Also, if EMS scanners had a changed response curve don't you think that would have been noted in the oscilloscope analysis of this model? I would certainly hope that Bill would have picked up and commented on that in his report. However, his report is not my concern because like I say I'm not casting any aspersions or taking any sides here. What I'm commenting on is your ILDA pattern as in your photos and that isn't perfect so far as ILDA patterns go.
Also, whilst the ILDA test pattern is not perfect until someone comes up with a universally accepted better test, it remains the gold standard for tuning scanners to the same performance.
Again depends on what you mean by optimally. If by optimally you mean to the absolutely perfect performance taking into account individual scanners own nuances, then you're probably right. However, as others have pointed out, the purpose of the ILDA pattern is to allow everyone to tune their scanners to the same standard so that a graphic on persons projector looks the same as the same graphic on another's, to that end it performs perfectly well and it also performs adequately well as a test of speed vs distortion.
If you don't recognise someone's expertise expect them to quote their credentials.
Last edited by White-Light; 04-29-2012 at 10:44.
Senior Member
are you bill benner?@Mr. Benner...
are you a representative of many PL users and a spokesman of their opinion?
i rest my case...
"its called character briggs..."
Senior Member
Didn't know I had to be to express an opinion on how myself and others via Pm had said that Solar appeared biased in the face of his own ILDA results. I never at any time represented by myself as a spokesman for Bill Benner or to be expressing an opinion on his behalf.
Actually I've had several PM's of support about undue comments made towards me lately on here (in several threads) and also expressing opinions about Solar's seemingly impossible defense of his own ILDA pattern.
In relation to EMS I'm not getting involved in an argument between two big companies. I've long stated that to be the case which is why I'm keeping away from expressing opinions on EMS's products and instead only sought to make general comments about the ILDA pattern and Solar's own set of scanners (which is not in any way taken by me to be representative of EMS's products as a whole), only of Solar's own findings with his particular set, which may or may not be improperly adjusted, faulty etc.
Needs moar photons
I think this whole thread can be summarized by their own response right here
so the 7k's will do 60kpps at some tiny angle (probably less than the accepted 8 deg of the ILDA test pattern)
just like the chinese rate their scanners!
1000000000kpps (@ .001 degree!)
It is NOT the scanners that are the problem, is what you expect them to do that is!
like billy gates would say, its a feature!
/runs away
Senior Member
Wow. What a thread! I just need to find a spare hour to re-read it all again and digest the contents...
LOL. Scanning speed versus scan angle, sort of like a teeter-totter (or see-saw as we call them in Aus)... There is much more to this I am sure.
Is it as simple as Cost, Reliability and Performance - pick two?
Sorry for the derailing, I am not a full bottle on Mondays...
This space for rent.
Needs moar photons
I don't doubt there is a lot more too it! I have no idea and quite frankly don't really care... like I said before, my EMS4k's can do the ILDA test pattern at 6.8 degrees... less than the specified 8 degrees... but whatever, I run them much, MUCH wider than that and my shows look just fine, since thankfully none of them incorporate the ILDA test pattern...
I think there may be a bit too much measurebating going on here
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