Pesident Clinton

[buffo]

You were in the military,right? I assume you may also have been in a fraternity in college.

Military, yes. Fraternity, no. (Never really cared for the Greek system) Plus I didn't start college until after I got out of the military, so by that time I was quite a bit more mature, and at that point the thought of joining a fraternity put me off.

Remember when the subordinates were approached by their superiors because of some transgression? The superior didn't know who among the large number of possibilities committed the wrongdoing and the tendency of the subordinates was to "stick together" in face of this authority? The decision was to hold the whole group liable for the act because they were the one's in possession of the knowledge and needed to be pressured to hold their comrade responsible. This also served to shift the loyalties from subordinate vs superior to the innocent vs the guilty.

This works in the military because the superior basically owns his subordinates. He can make your life hell, and I'm not just talking about reduction in rank, forfeiture of pay, or even confinement to quarters. He can also ensure you get the absolute worst duty. All the shitty work-details that no one wants to be involved with are now yours. All the late-night shifts are now yours. Oh, and then while you are trying to sleep, he can ensure there are other (loud) activities going on to make it impossible to sleep. Oh, and don't forget, you signed a contract, so unlike a regular job you ca't just quit. You are stuck there. So yeah, when the old man speaks, the underlings listen because they know he carries a big hammer.

But religion doesn't have that hammer. Sure, a religious leader (Bishop, Imam, Rabbi, etc) can denounce wrongdoing, but he can't hold the entire congregation accountable for the acts. Indeed, if he speaks too strongly, people will simply leave the congregation for another one that has a less preachy leader.

Adam

[ghosttrain]

if he speaks too strongly, people will simply leave the congregation for another one that has a less preachy leader.

You mean like leave the religion?

[planters]

Adam,
That is a good summary of the tools that the military leader has to enforce compliance. Depending on the religion, the religious leader may have more or less power. Gosttrain gave a good reference above of the Islamic leader's tools and the consequence for apostasy is DEATH.

Islam is a special case. It is like un-reformed Christianity. Often, the Islamic terrorists are called extremists, but because many of their acts are supported by the Koran, I believe it is more accurate to call them zealots. This is why the call for moderate Muslims to condemn these heinous acts seems to be getting little traction. Polls have been done of Muslims in general and a frightening percentage support the terrorists or at least agree that violence against the non-believer is justified. They are not a majority, but 10,20,30,40% of a couple of billion people is a huge number of sympathizers.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa...ion-polls.aspx

No. Like I said above, my call to pressure moderate Muslims to identify and deal with these terrorists is unfair to them and a difficult position for me to take, but the pressure has to originate from us, from outside the religion.

[ghosttrain]

Let me add more on apostasy because I believe someone may search the internet and find a muslim who argues punishment for apostasy is not death and post it as a counterargument. While many muslim scholars agree that the Quran and Hadith are clear on apostasy (you can google or search on youtube), there are few which disagree but I think their arguments are weak and standard arguments brought by christians as well when the Bible is criticized.

1) First argument is that it only referred to apostates in those times and it doesn't apply today. There is no hint for that in the Quran. if that was the case, it is logical it would be mentioned explicitly, not implicitly. And if that is the case, who is to decide whether the whole Sharia law has to still apply today? This argument doesn't hold in my opinion.
Same argument is brought up when talking about killing of homosexuals in Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 in the Bible.

2) Second argument is there is a contradicting surah where it says religion shouldn't be compulsory.
Why is it assumed that one prevails over the other? And if it was the case, why did God even write 4:89? It's sounds to me as an insult to God to suggest this as you're basically claiming an allpower almighty allknowing being wrote "This is a rule. Ignore the previous sentence, this is the actual rule" and this is a cryptic way of saying the first rule doesn't apply anymore and the second rule didn't apply in the past.
There are plenty of contradictions in all holy books and while I don't want to say it hints to something I'll repeat that nobody as far as I know has given a compelling argument how one can determine which part prevails if they contradict each other.

In international law if there is a general rule and a specific rule the latter one is used. In national laws it might be the opposite though.

Don't get me even started on what islam has to say about homosexuals and what is done in practice as well.

I mean I'm all for every muslim interpreting it that way which means more moderate mulsims, even if the arguments are weak.

EDIT: And yes, the polls were the statistics I was referring to. You can blame it on US foreign policy if you want but it is still alarming.

[buffo]

You mean like leave the religion?

That is an option, of course, but no, I was referring more to the people who leave a "strict" congregation for one that is more permissive. Think Catholics that to covert to Lutheran, or Baptists and Methodists who convert to a non-denominational Church. That sort of thing.

Admittedly though, my own experience with this is pretty firmly rooted in Christianity. Since Islam has not yet had their version of the Protestant Reformation, it's possible that the idea of departing one congregation for another, more lenient one is not nearly as likely for the average Muslim... Eric hit the nail on the head on this point, and it's something I honestly hadn't considered.

Side note: I do think that in general, once a person leaves a "strict" congregation he or she is more likely to end up as an agnostic/athiest at some point. I've certainly seen this progression in the world of Christianity. But again, Islam is quite different (and arguably more violent), particularly with the crime of apostasy, when compared to Christianity, so I can see how it might be less likely that a once-devout Muslim would ever convert to agnosticism/atheism.

As for the greater point of trying to apply pressure to moderate Muslims to help curb the spread of the extremist elements, I just don't think they (moderate Muslims) will have much influence with the more radical (or zealous) ones.

Adam

[ghosttrain]

I'm going to talk even more off-topic here but what the heck.

Side note: I do think that in general, once a person leaves a "strict" congregation he or she is more likely to end up as an agnostic/athiest at some point. I've certainly seen this progression in the world of Christianity.

That's true. Although I think most don't and rather end up as christians with many exceptions in what they believe in the bible. I think atheists are less than 5% of US.
Most christians are actually deists. They haven't read the Bible, they don't agree with a lot of things mentioned in the bible yet they consider themselves christians. If you don't believe many things in your holy book and cherry pick what you want I think that makes you a deist, not a christian. But I understand why people want to stick to christianity, it gives you a community, it is something that has existed for thousands of years by millions of people which makes you feel it is more plausible and more likely to be true than a personal belief. And people really want it to be true because it makes life way less depressing and more meaningful, that's understandable.

And I would let the muslims believe what they want for the same reason, but not at the cost of human lives.
And for the above reasons I also don't believe there's any likelyhood of most muslims to turn atheist, agnostic or even deists, so the only option I see is a reformed school of islam.

I don't want to sound like I feel I'm on a high horse, I'm sure there are things I'm denying right now without even knowing it.

As for the greater point of trying to apply pressure to moderate Muslims to help curb the spread of the extremist elements, I just don't think they (moderate Muslims) will have much influence with the more radical (or zealous) ones.

I'm not as knowledgeable on this but I think it's similar to North Korea. All you need is a group of people to spread propaganda and millions will fall for it. It seems more logical to deal with the religious and political authorities in Sharia law countries and seize the control of the propaganda than trying to talk sense into their population. However, for the muslim population outside of those countries and particularly in Europe and US they could really be educated instead of letting them preserve their own cultures in their neighborhoods and demonize those who criticize islam so they won't feel offended.

[planters]

As for the greater point of trying to apply pressure to moderate Muslims to help curb the spread of the extremist elements, I just don't think they (moderate Muslims) will have much influence with the more radical (or zealous) ones.

Again, I agree with you, but you understand that I, unlike a zealot, am being gentle. If the moderate Muslim has little hope of influencing the terrorists among them then what hope have we as infidels, except through force or the threat of force? I, for one, refuse to hug a suicide bomber.

Sliding back toward politics, the European governments and the EU have a tiger by the tail.

For many years the wealth of Europe and the pressure by business leaders/bankers as well as the wish to avoid the pro socialist activists allowed and contributed to the loosening of immigration restrictions. The growth of socialist policies also contributed by attracting immigrants and the resulting taxation to a declining reproductive rate which was offset by this third world immigration.

Isolated ghettos, many populated by Muslim immigrants and the rising pressure to accommodate Islamic policies, even Sharia courts in some areas, has set the table.

Muslims have been trying with mixed success to invade and control Europe for 1400 years.

Then, the shot heard around the world was the disastrous Middle East policies of GW Bush and exacerbated by Obama. Invasion followed by overthrow of the existing governments lead to today's amplified, regional wars and the growth of the only organized political structure in the area...ISIS. The huge increase in immigration out of this area not to mention the continuing immigration out of Afghanistan now resembles more an invasion of Europe because of the associated violence.

The governments of Europe are desperately trying to deflect blame and avoid conflict by suppressing the responses of their own citizens. THIS WILL NOT WORK. The rise of the political right? Are you kidding me? How about the rise of a new IRA, political assassinations and revolution?

Europe is toast. The citizens of Europe need to REMOVE their governments, peacefully....if possible The Muslims are the symptom. They haven't shifted their attitudes. It is the leadership of Europe that has failed disastrously.

[swamidog]

this thread was a lot more fun when I thought you were just trolling.

Again, I agree with you, but you understand that I, unlike a zealot, am being gentle. If the moderate Muslim has little hope of influencing the terrorists among them then what hope have we as infidels, except through force or the threat of force? I, for one, refuse to hug a suicide bomber.

Sliding back toward politics, the European governments and the EU have a tiger by the tail.

For many years the wealth of Europe and the pressure by business leaders/bankers as well as the wish to avoid the pro socialist activists allowed and contributed to the loosening of immigration restrictions. The growth of socialist policies also contributed by attracting immigrants and the resulting taxation to a declining reproductive rate which was offset by this third world immigration.

Isolated ghettos, many populated by Muslim immigrants and the rising pressure to accommodate Islamic policies, even Sharia courts in some areas, has set the table.

Muslims have been trying with mixed success to invade and control Europe for 1400 years.

Then, the shot heard around the world was the disastrous Middle East policies of GW Bush and exacerbated by Obama. Invasion followed by overthrow of the existing governments lead to today's amplified, regional wars and the growth of the only organized political structure in the area...ISIS. The huge increase in immigration out of this area not to mention the continuing immigration out of Afghanistan now resembles more an invasion of Europe because of the associated violence.

The governments of Europe are desperately trying to deflect blame and avoid conflict by suppressing the responses of their own citizens. THIS WILL NOT WORK. The rise of the political right? Are you kidding me? How about the rise of a new IRA, political assassinations and revolution?

Europe is toast. The citizens of Europe need to REMOVE their governments, peacefully....if possible The Muslims are the symptom. They haven't shifted their attitudes. It is the leadership of Europe that has failed disastrously.

[planters]

this thread was a lot more fun when I thought you were just trolling.

When exactly...did you think that?

[ghosttrain]

I mean I guess it would be okay to use the world muslims to describe what was happening during the times of the early caliphates, but today you really should say islamists.

BTW, I found this cool addon for Youtube visitors called "Video Blocker" available for Firefox, Chrome and Opera. Just right click on the channel name and choose "Block videos from this channel". Boom, annoying political videos gone.