LaserBoy 09-01-2008 !!!

[Anthony]

james, come on.... stop the shit
You are actually proud of this topic and the negative "vibe" in it ?

Come on "man"... thats just really sad.
You have to agree... right?

[ildadirect]

The ILDA Image Data Transfer Format is used to transfer image data (XY points and their color) between different laser software systems. No one is telling James what format to use, or not to use, internal to his system.

Systems such as LaserBoy can use whatever internal data structure they want. They can save in files however they want. Files don't have to be ILDA-compatible -- except when exchanging with other systems such as Pangolin, LaserAnimation, Mamba, Phoenix, Spaghetti (new to me!), etc.

So James can use "format 3" if he wants. No problems from ILDA.

If the argument is over whether "format 3" is superior to 0/1/2/4/5 in some way, I'm not going to get into that. For some purposes, yes, format 3 may be superior. But even given this assumption, no standard is perfect. James should be happy that 1) his system has unique benefits from using "format 3" internally and 2) at least there is some way, however "imperfect", for laserists to trade files using 0/1/2/4/5.

Finally, a note on "ILDA files". James is free to load and save however he wants ("format 3"). I echo Bill in asking that, if possible, he not call these ILDA files or use the extension ".ild" since there may be confusion with Format 0/1/2/4/5 standards-compliant files. A good extension might be ".il3" files.

However, if James has lots of legacy "format 3" files with the ".ild" extension, I'm not going to have a cow and insist that he change. Sometimes software has some inconsistencies. I assume that the difference between LaserBoy .ild and ILDA-compliant .ild would be understood and worked around by his users.

-- Patrick Murphy, ILDA Executive Director

[ildadirect]

One recent topic of discussion has been ILDA treatment of non-members. I want to re-emphasize we are open to everyone. The most important goal of ILDA is to advance the entire laser display industry.

As I've stated before, we do not tolerate anti-competitive actions, where Members would use ILDA standards etc. to deliberately harm non-members. Fortunately, as demonstrated by Bill Benner, this was never the case with the format 3 issue raised by James. (Format 3 was never adopted as a standard, due to software reasons, not anti-competitive reasons.)

ILDA works with non-members. For example, I have had a number of private email exchanges with James to find out more about his issues and to give background from ILDA's perspective. His non-membership was never an issue.

If you are not a Member, ILDA is happy to help. If you are a Member, then you get more input into things like standards; for one thing, you can vote on such issues and your voice will have more weight.

I am sorry to come back to this forum and see how the discussion devolved. But I do want everyone still reading to note that ILDA supports the entire industry, and welcomes input from non-members as well as Members. We hope you will consider joining ILDA, both for what you can get out of it in direct and indirect benefits, and as a way to support our work in many areas.

-- Patrick Murphy, ILDA Executive Director

PS: If you do want to interact with ILDA, please email or call. I don't regularly check forums, so direct contact is best. I'm at mail@laserist.org, 407-797-7654.

[James Lehman]

I have been giving this issue a great deal of concentration over the past few days and I must say that I am very glad that Patrick Murphy, ILDA Executive Director, came back with two excellent posts that make a lot of great statements.

He suggests that I use the file extension ".il3" when saving files that contain format 3 data. This is exactly the three characters I would like to use! As I said before, I did not invent format 3. I don't feel it is my place to name it or sanction its use. His statements about my use of it make me feel like I have license now.

The reason I would like to use this extension is because it clearly indicates that the file contains information other than format 0 or 1.

It is an established fact that some older ILDA file readers, that may still be in use, only recognize format 0 & 1 and do not recognize format 2. It is assumed that all of the color indices found in 0 or 1 are relative to the default palette of 62 colors.... even though format 2 has been a part of the ILDA file standard since the beginning.

If the file reader was designed to be intelligent enough to skip formats it did not recognize, it would, at least, be able to read all of the format 0 & 1 data, allowing the use of all of the drawings in the file; even if the file contained formats 2 & 3!

Formats 0 & 1 are image information. Formats 2 & 3 are color information. These two concepts compliment each other like an adjective and a noun.

colored vectors

In order for the concepts of format 0, 1, 2, & 3 to exist, they must logically CO-exist. These ideas are intrinsically tied to each other.

Formats 4 & 5 take the notion of image and color and mix them into the same data structure; like this:

cvoelcotroerds

This concept has no historical precedence and does not build upon the original idea at all. It replaces it entirely. This is GUARANTEED to not work in any older ILDA file reader AT ALL. If the reader is smart enough to ignore all format 4 & 5 information, it will be left with NOTHING!

So, for the exact same reason why it is a great idea to save files that might contain format 3 (and 2) with the extension .il3, it is perhaps an even better idea to save all files that might contain format 4 or 5 with the extension .il4!

That way modern laser software developers can choose which formats they want to support simply by choosing which extensions to open.

.ild should be connected to the idea that the file only contains format 0 & 1.

.il3 indicates that the file has either format 2 or 3 and could be read by looking for formats (0, 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5)

.il4 indicates that the file has either format 4 or 5 and could be read by looking for formats (0, 1, 2, 4 & 5)

James.

[carmangary]

No you have it all wrong. There is no reason to save an ILDA file as anything except .ILD because the format code tells exactly what it is. The only difference is in your case where you advertise as format 3 but you really aren't. It was suggested to save as IL3 because you format is NOT an ILDA format. There is no reason for compliant ILDA standard files to be saved as anything other than ILD.

[ildadirect]

I do not speak for the ILDA Technical Committee, but I can give my "best guess" based on my work with the Committee.

There is only one ILDA File Format. The ILDA File Format has had 3 or 4 major revisions in its life, always to add or refine color handling.

This means there is only one ILDA File Format extension, ".ild". I agree it is a bit inconsistent, since a Format 4/5 ".ild" file can't be read by older software that only knows about Format 0/1/2. However, there are ways around this.

ILDA expects that anyone writing current laser software, who wants to support frame interchange, will improve their ILDA-reading and ILDA-writing capabilities to handle Format 4/5. To be specific, the draft Revision 009 states that an ILDA-compatible reader MUST read Formats 0, 1, 2, 4 and 5 (not "3" which was never adopted). The writer MUST write 0, 1 and 4 (user selectable), can optionally write 5, and is suggested to write 2. If 2 is not written, then there are rules for what color palette values to use.

The people who are inconvenienced by this, are those with older or non-supported software that can only read Formats 0 and 1 (and maybe 2). They will not be able to read files with Formats 4 and 5.

Fortunately, there are workarounds:

1. Ask the person furnishing the ILDA files to save them in Formats 0/1/2. This is similar to asking to have a Word 2007 ".docx" file be saved in the older Word 95-2003 ".doc" format, if you don't have Word 2007.
2. Ask the software provider to update their ILDA file handling, for free or a reasonable update fee. This is similar to non-Microsoft programs such as iWorks Pages which can read Word 2007 .docx files.
3. If the software is no longer supported, and an ILDA file is only available in 4/5, there may be an eager Photonlexicon or Laserfreak person who would write a converter. This is similar to Microsoft and third party converters for .docx files.
4. If all else fails, the person may want to consider using a more modern software which handles 4/5. This is similar to a person working in an environment where they often get .docx files. Since this is a frequent and professional situation, it may be easiest just to buy Word 2007 and use it (it is not that bad ).

Perhaps the Technical Committee could consider using an extension such as .il4 to identify ILDA files stored in Format 4/5. However, my guess is that, since Formats 4/5 have been used unofficially since 2002, and officially since 2007, and these are called ".ild" files, it may be too late to change.

Again, there are alternatives for those with older software. I think it is pretty remarkable that Formats 0 and 1 have been in use for about 18 years, and Format 2 for about 14 years. So if after this time there is a small incompatibility/inconsistency, I am not too worried.

I know this does not answer your question (which was a good one), but it does give my understanding of the current state of ILDA file format compatibility.

-- Patrick Murphy, ILDA Executive Director

[James Lehman]

Do you respect the fact that format 3 is a way to do 24 bit color that is consistent with format 2? I mean... it DOES WORK! It was proposed. It WAS implemented! You can't really argue with the post I wrote just before this one. Just to say that all ILDA files should end in .ild is not logical.

It is very easy to look for more than one file extension to open.

BTW LaserBoy is The Rosetta Stone of (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), DXF, wave, bmp, palette, etc... !

James.

[carmangary]

Your're format 3 is non-compliant. Change it to be compliant and you are talking. Until then you might as well call it Format X.

[James Lehman]

Not using the standard 32 byte format header data structure is what is NOT ILDA!

Yah know... bloody knife...

You haven't been paying attention. Have you?

James.

[ildadirect]

Do you respect the fact that format 3 is a way to do 24 bit color that is consistent with format 2? I mean... it DOES WORK! It was proposed. It WAS implemented! You can't really argue with the post I wrote just before this one. Just to say that all ILDA files should end in .ild is not logical.

It is very easy to look for more than one file extension to open.

BTW LaserBoy is The Roseto Stone of (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), DXF, wave, bmp, palette, etc... !

James.

1. I respect the fact that "Format 3" is a way to do 24 bit color that is consistent with Format 2.
2. I agree it does work (and has some advantages)
3. I agree it was proposed.
4. I agree it was implemented, at least by yourself and maybe by others such as Peter Jacubek during the proposal stage.
5. I don't argue with your previous post. I stated you had some good ideas and that I did not address them.
6. I agree that there is some inconsistency in the use of ".ild" for both Format 0/1 and 4/5. Due to this use for the past 5-6 years, it is likely to continue -- sorry. I gave 4 workarounds to deal with the inconsistencies.
7. I am not familiar with LaserBoy, though I look forward to seeing it at FLEM. If LaserBoy is a rosetta stone which can import .ild Format 4/5 files, and output .ild Format 0/1 files, then it is useful for anyone who has laser software that can only read Format 0/1 files.

I will also say the following:

• "Format 3" was proposed but was dropped and never adopted as part of the ILDA File Format.
• Formats 4/5 were adopted by the Technical Committee in March 2007. The official documentation, Revision 009, is slowly inching its way to publication (I heavily revised it today to clarify Format 2 support).
• The ILDA File Format is not perfect. It was designed by a committee, it adopted some practices which in retrospect were not the best, and there are some minor inconsistencies or incompatibilities. As I wrote before, there is a small class of user who is inconvenienced and there are workarounds (including maybe using LaserBoy as a file conversion program).
• For a volunteer-designed standard almost 20 years old, the ILDA File Format has held up well. I urge anyone writing laser software to get the Revision 009 document when it is released (Real Soon Now) and to update their software to be ILDA compatible in reading and writing files. If you also want your software to support James' Format 3-type files, you should contact him regarding that format.

I hope this clarifies any confusing points I may have made.

-- Patrick